American Politics 3.0 - Back to Brunch

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

^^^ Hot take.

Super hot. It's not as if we have an example of an Arizona Democratic Senator who has done a complete 180 on many of the things she advocated for before being elected or anything.

[Lanny_McDonald]

ALL politicians do it. You're talking like you've discovered something new and unknown - that water is wet! Politician will go where the money is, especially in the United States. This is not new information. It has always been that way and will continue that way, thanks to legal interpretations like Citizens United. The whole system is corrupt. Accept it and learn to deal with it.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Accept it and learn to deal with it.

A real "affect change and progress" attitude there.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Learn to deal with it, as in learn to make the system work or make change from the inside. Sitting in a pile of your own feces, crying about it, and hurling it about like the chimps at the zoo does not improve anything. You want to fix the system, get engaged, learn how the system works, then use the mechanism against itself.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Learn to deal with it, as in learn to make the system work or make change from the inside. Sitting in a pile of your own feces, crying about it, and hurling it about like the chimps at the zoo does not improve anything. You want to fix the system, get engaged, learn how the system works, then use the mechanism against itself.

Yes, fixing the system from the inside has a long tradition of being successful. People are not going to get the radical changes they want by working within a corrupt system that's stacked against them.

Big changes almost always come through collective action and activism, and a good way of getting people involved in that is to constantly remind them that corruption isn't exclusive to one party and that the system itself is broken.

[rubecube]

Anyways, way too far out primary numbers aren't looking good for Sinema. My guess is she already has a foot out the door into the corporate lobbying world and isn't planning to run again anyways, so she's probably not too worried about this.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1448700758300532736

[ResAlien]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

ALL politicians do it. You're talking like you've discovered something new and unknown - that water is wet! Politician will go where the money is, especially in the United States. This is not new information. It has always been that way and will continue that way, thanks to legal interpretations like Citizens United. The whole system is corrupt. Accept it and learn to deal with it.

I don’t recall you banging this “it be like that sometimes, what can you do?” drum as an excuse during the trump administration. What changed?

[2Stonedbirds]

His team has the ball?

At least Rube is consistent in asking for accountability.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Yes, fixing the system from the inside has a long tradition of being successful. People are not going to get the radical changes they want by working within a corrupt system that's stacked against them.

Big changes almost always come through collective action and activism, and a good way of getting people involved in that is to constantly remind them that corruption isn't exclusive to one party and that the system itself is broken.

You were right, shut up and vote out trump has become shut up and don’t undermine biden

[Barnet Flame]

Biden doesn’t need any help with that.

He was the least worst choice at the time and he has just about lived up to the billing.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by ResAlien

I don’t recall you banging this “it be like that sometimes, what can you do?” drum as an excuse during the trump administration. What changed?

Nothing has changed. When you can point to the someone doing the egregious, illegal, and unconstitutional #### the Trump admin was doing, I'll let you hurl that in my face. When the Democrats start stripping away people's right to vote, make it almost impossible for groups of people to vote, and entrench laws that benefit ONLY the rich, I'll let you circle back and I'll fall on my sword. Until then this is just rubecube hurling his feces in every direction because his personal agenda is not be addressed and he wants the whole system to burn to the ground as a result. There's a little bit of Steve Bannon there.

As it is, Biden is maintaining status quo in many regards, which is exactly what Obama was forced to do during his first two years in office. Change didn't really start until after the mid-terms in his first term in office, so that is the same expectation I have for the Biden admin. Trust me, I'm ready to nail this mother####er to the wall as well, because he has not followed through on a couple significant promises of change, and not protecting the poor/weak as aggressively as he should. The unfortunate thing the current mechanism allows for limited action other than voting them out, and the alternative is a million times worse because it is a return to mayhem.

As far as changing the system, I'm currently dedicating some of my time on getting Ms. Sinema out of office. The challenge is finding a good candidate to replace her. The Arizona Dems want to run a guy that I think will be just as bad, and two other candidates seem open to outside influence. We need a good candidate, and they are really hard to find. The biggest problem we face is money in politics, and unfortunately money in politics is how candidates are selected. Until we can break the power of money in Washington, and the trickledown effect that has in the system, we're stuck fighting this larger problem of politicians working for themselves.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Nothing has changed. When you can point to the someone doing the egregious, illegal, and unconstitutional #### the Trump admin was doing, I'll let you hurl that in my face. When the Democrats start stripping away people's right to vote, make it almost impossible for groups of people to vote, and entrench laws that benefit ONLY the rich, I'll let you circle back and I'll fall on my sword. Until then this is just rubecube hurling his feces in every direction because his personal agenda is not be addressed and he wants the whole system to burn to the ground as a result. There's a little bit of Steve Bannon there.

Yes, wanting people to not have to slave and die for health care and housing is very similar to white nationalism. Good call.

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Nothing has changed. When you can point to the someone doing the egregious, illegal, and unconstitutional #### the Trump admin was doing, I'll let you hurl that in my face. When the Democrats start stripping away people's right to vote, make it almost impossible for groups of people to vote, and entrench laws that benefit ONLY the rich, I'll let you circle back and I'll fall on my sword. Until then this is just rubecube hurling his feces in every direction because his personal agenda is not be addressed and he wants the whole system to burn to the ground as a result. There's a little bit of Steve Bannon there.

As it is, Biden is maintaining status quo in many regards, which is exactly what Obama was forced to do during his first two years in office. Change didn't really start until after the mid-terms in his first term in office, so that is the same expectation I have for the Biden admin. Trust me, I'm ready to nail this mother####er to the wall as well, because he has not followed through on a couple significant promises of change, and not protecting the poor/weak as aggressively as he should. The unfortunate thing the current mechanism allows for limited action other than voting them out, and the alternative is a million times worse because it is a return to mayhem.

As far as changing the system, I'm currently dedicating some of my time on getting Ms. Sinema out of office. The challenge is finding a good candidate to replace her. The Arizona Dems want to run a guy that I think will be just as bad, and two other candidates seem open to outside influence. We need a good candidate, and they are really hard to find. The biggest problem we face is money in politics, and unfortunately money in politics is how candidates are selected. Until we can break the power of money in Washington, and the trickledown effect that has in the system, we're stuck fighting this larger problem of politicians working for themselves.

I agree wholeheartedly with your first paragraph.

But the money conversation is interesting. I know nothing of Arizona politics, but most Republican primary contests lately have gone to the no-money Tea Party guys against the wishes of where the party money was funneling. They were the most horrible and deplorable candidates around. Biden's campaign was broke when they turned things around. I don't know that money is even the be all end all, it once was.

If it's not money or any kind of establishment support that rules, does that mean we're left with populism? Count me out if we're relying on populism to produce good government, as I don't have any faith in what comes out of those movements on either end of the political spectrum, and they do seem to mostly live at those ends.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by nfotiu

I agree wholeheartedly with your first paragraph.

But the money conversation is interesting. I know nothing of Arizona politics, but most Republican primary contests lately have gone to the no-money Tea Party guys against the wishes of where the party money was funneling. They were the most horrible and deplorable candidates around. Biden's campaign was broke when they turned things around. I don't know that money is even the be all end all, it once was.

If it's not money or any kind of establishment support that rules, does that mean we're left with populism? Count me out if we're relying on populism to produce good government, as I don't have any faith in what comes out of those movements on either end of the political spectrum, and they do seem to mostly live at those ends.

You have to go down the rabbit hole to find who is behind the candidates. The Tea Party was not as "grass roots" as some would lead you to believe, and they are backed by some real big money players. Sinema was supposed to be one of those "grass roots" candidates too, but turned into a money monster. That is where Citizens United has made this much more difficult to follow, because everything is shrouded in secrecy and hard to track. You don't know who is behind a candidate until they're in office and making the payback. The only way you know is to get involved in the selection process and learn about the candidates early on. The system is all about money, even when it appears it is not. When you see someone who appears to not have the coin to run for office (like Sinema) it is likely because they have made a deal with the devil to gain access to that money.

[Dion]

This is good for the States and Democrats

https://twitter.com/user/status/1448382199078719488

[Cali Panthers Fan]

^Uh, no it's not. If they don't vote they'll try to gain power through violent means. They already tried once, it'll just be bigger this time. That's actually quite terrifying.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

^Uh, no it's not. If they don't vote they'll try to gain power through violent means. They already tried once, it'll just be bigger this time. That's actually quite terrifying.

Yeah, gotta agree with Cali here. This is a big worry on both the left and the right, but the right is a bigger worry at the moment. History has shown that when people lose the belief that they can pursue their goals/values through legitimate means, they will absolutely attempt to do so through illegitimate means; which almost always means violence or extreme civil/social disruption.

This is where Lanny misrepresents my views. I'm not advocating for burning the whole system to the ground (not yet anyways), but if radical changes aren't made sooner than later, that's exactly what we're going to see.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Yeah, gotta agree with Cali here. This is a big worry on both the left and the right, but the right is a bigger worry at the moment. History has shown that when people lose the belief that they can pursue their goals/values through legitimate means, they will absolutely attempt to do so through illegitimate means; which almost always means violence or extreme civil/social disruption.

This is where Lanny misrepresents my views. I'm not advocating for burning the whole system to the ground (not yet anyways), but if radical changes aren't made sooner than later, that's exactly what we're going to see.

Hey, look at that! I knew we could agree on something!

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

Hey, look at that! I knew we could agree on something!

I think we probably fundamentally agree on most things. I think you just have a bit more faith in Democrats and the MSM as honest actors, whereas I see them as guilty of manufacturing consent for policies that perpetuate the destruction of the working class.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by rubecube

I think we probably fundamentally agree on most things. I think you just have a bit more faith in Democrats and the MSM as honest actors, whereas I see them as guilty of manufacturing consent for policies that perpetuate the destruction of the working class.

Yes and no. I don't really trust them to do the hard things when it's necessary because they're weak and don't have a backbone, but I also know that ideologically, they align pretty much with what I think government should do. Obviously, the big disconnect is that they don't practice what they preach, but that's par for the course for every government in history outside of a few key moments.

The other side of the coin consists of people who are absolute monsters who don't believe in any fundamental value of democracy, liberty (unless it's a situation that only applies to them), equity, or even financial responsibility. They literally have no interest in governance other than getting re-elected and holding power...to do nothing? I never understand what their platform actually is anymore.

So yeah, I'm a lesser of two evils kinda guy, and right now, the amount of difference between the level of evil between the groups could fill the Grand Canyon. I wish it were different, but that's the reality that I have to live with. Maybe one day it will get better, but for now, I'll stick with some amount of stability over the other side that would be fine with watching it all burn to the ground while they play the violin.

"Don't let perfect become the enemy of good" is sorta my mantra.