Hart, McLeod, Dube, Foote, Formenton charged with sexual assault
Normal buttsmacking during sexual activity may look like pre discussion when in a trusted relationship about preferences with boundaries recognized.
It can also look like heat of the moment small moments escalating via signs from the women indicating enjoyment, like saying “harder”, “hit me”, and more crude verbiage of sexual play. It may also include other acts progressing to this.
It may also include checking in safely to ensure a person feels comfortable being able to speak openly and indicate discomfort. When discomfort occurs being able to re-engage trust before proceeding.
In either way, it shows an accurate reading of cues to progress into these types of acts that indicate enjoyment and pleasure being derived.
What it doesn’t look like is a bunch of drunk dudes piling in a room with a girl that was fed shots all night, that they barely know or have a comfort level or trust established, taking turns performing aggressive acts that aren’t in a setting where you can’t possibly read cues from a women, nor are they even being attempted to look for.
These are very very obvious differences and the comparison to possible accidental hip contact is obtuse, and a good example of rape culture.
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There’s definitely some confusion around communication. Start off nice and soft, if your partner is into it they’ll let you know verbally or through some sort of withdraw, whether they’re into whatever you’re doing. This ratcheting it up straight to 100 with somebody you just met is obviously not the right approach, and basically bypassing consent.
If I were a fly on the wall I'd guess Dube smacked her to get a reaction from his "boys" and embarrass her. That's a quick way to get someone to not continue further, by embarrassing them. You look at Foremention (sp?) doing the splits over her? It's all about embarrassing her in front of their bros. Idiots.
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You’re missing the point to quite the extreme here.
And you’re pointedly ignoring the concerns brought up by MBates and the Supreme Court Justice.
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In my estimation, there is a high frequency of sexual interactions every day in Canada that would not be thought of by an average person as unlawful, and yet are prohibited sexual assault.
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Adopting the Crown’s position would also require us to find that cohabiting partners across Canada, including spouses, commit a sexual assault when either one of them, even with express prior consent, kisses or caresses the other while the latter is asleep.
Do you disagree with these assessments?
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Originally Posted by PepsiFree
How often do you break the consent law?
I expect that I, like almost everyone else who has been in long-term sexual relationships, have broken it many times. The only people who don’t routinely break it are those who only have sexual relations on brief acquaintance and never get past that awkward, self-conscious early stage of relations.
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Originally Posted by fotze
If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
And you’re pointedly ignoring the concerns brought up by MBates and the Supreme Court Justice.
Do you disagree with these assessments?
I expect that I, like almost everyone else who has been in long-term sexual relationships, have broken it many times. The only people who don’t routinely break it are those who only have sexual relations on brief acquaintance and never get past that awkward, self-conscious early stage of relations.
Because it’s not relevant to the point I’m making.
So, as someone who believes they have regularly engaged in criminal sexual behaviour, why haven’t you been charged and why aren’t you in jail?
If you were to ask a woman for consent before sexual ass-smacking, she'd probably get up and leave immediately.
The issue with Dube, potentially, was that he was doing it in a way designed to hurt, and he didn't have consent for the intercourse in the the first place.
I would imagine that anyone who wanted to be smacked would be the one asking. And if they didn’t I wouldn’t assume it was all right. In fact I wouldn’t think to ask them.
Because it’s not relevant to the point I’m making.
Then let’s take a slight diversion from your point. Do you disagree with MBates’ assessment of the state of laws around consent?
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Originally Posted by PepsiFree
So, as someone who believes they have regularly engaged in criminal sexual behaviour, why haven’t you been charged and why aren’t you in jail?
I’m not in jail because I haven’t been charged. I haven’t been charged because my partner did not feel she had been assaulted. But as MBates observed (you really should take a minute or two to read the whole comment):
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…whether a person faces a sexual assault prosecution has become increasingly dictated by one factor: whether a sexual partner decides to make a police report alleging non-consensual sexual contact
I’ve answered your question. Try answering mine.
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Originally Posted by fotze
If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
Last edited by CliffFletcher; 05-27-2025 at 11:17 PM.
And you’re pointedly ignoring the concerns brought up by MBates and the Supreme Court Justice.
Do you disagree with these assessments?
I expect that I, like almost everyone else who has been in long-term sexual relationships, have broken it many times. The only people who don’t routinely break it are those who only have sexual relations on brief acquaintance and never get past that awkward, self-conscious early stage of relations.
Not seeking to get into this too much, but if you’re going to focus this much on Justice Fish’s dissenting reasons in R v J.A., I would really suggest you familiarize yourself with both the facts of that case and the majority’s reasons. It might not be quite the appeal to authority you’re hoping for.
Not that I’m quibbling with Morris Fish—I wouldn’t dare, he’s a very noted jurist and I’m not. But the facts of that case were not really about a casual intimate contact with a sleeping partner. It involved anally penetrating the complainant with a dildo after she lost consciousness from being choked, and the issue was whether a person could consent to that in advance. The majority said consent is worthless if it can’t be withdrawn at any time, and honestly I find that pretty hard to argue with, all due respect to Justice Fish.
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Just as a reminder, the law exists for protection, and consent isn’t always verbal.
If you think the law is saying you need to ask your long term partner with whom you already share mutual respect, trust, and understanding if it’s OK to do every single thing you’re doing every single time you’re doing it, you’re probably overthinking it.
This is far less complex and consent is request/granted in far more natural, straightforward ways than people are making it out to be. If the concept of consent is hard to grasp in your own life, this is a problem.
Deep down (or not so deep) these five guys know the answer. Because they're human and as social creatures we inherently are adept at understanding cues, with only special exceptions.
We may disregard those cues (as these individuals did), but our gut can tell us pretty reliably based on body language, verbal expression, facial cues, among other things. Our entire evolution has revolved around social dynamics because it was our means for survival. And correctly interpreting others often meant living or dying. So yeah, over many generations we fine tuned that ability.
We may, some of us, be pretty dull in ways. But that isn't one. We're extremely and inherently good at appraising other people.
That it's trying to be logic-ed down to its basic components, devoid of the non-verbal aspects that are pretty universally recognized and understood by humans, shows that certain people are willing to play extraordinarily dumb to uphold their age old tradition of boys will be boys even in the face of significant wrongs committed.
So yeah, like you say. If consent is that hard to grasp then something serious must be awry.
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Last edited by TrentCrimmIndependent; 05-28-2025 at 01:08 AM.
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If I were a fly on the wall I'd guess Dube smacked her to get a reaction from his "boys" and embarrass her. That's a quick way to get someone to not continue further, by embarrassing them. You look at Foremention (sp?) doing the splits over her? It's all about embarrassing her in front of their bros. Idiots.
Foote, not Formenton.
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Asking for permission too much will kill the mood. Once again, I'm working from the position that you're in tune enough with your partner to notice when they are not having a good time or enjoying what's going on, and working within the parameters of the "normal" acts. I would consider anything that leaves a mark outside of normal, and where do you draw the line between a "smack" and a grab. During consensual sex are you asking for permission every time you grab a body part? Obviously, if you are grabbing in a way to hurt the other person that's different.
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Originally Posted by blankall
Hard to answer this question without getting overly crude. But there's typically activity going on that's well beyond that going on at that point. Once again, not talking about any smack that's going to cause pain or leave a mark.
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Originally Posted by blankall
What's a strike? Is your hip hitting their buttocks a strike?
Edit: Couldn't you also define a grab as a strike. It's a strike but you hang on afterwards. You have to verbally ask permission every time you grab a new body part, despite the fact you're well into the act?
Anyways, I think we're getting way off topic here. But I don't think you can just put a black/white strike line, where things are off limits without verbal consent.
Not to pick on you but In a way I will but all your responses like you should just know based on her looks is concerning and how ppl get into trials like these.
It's not that simple as you make it seem . I've been with my wife for 17 years . We have relations settings from 0 to 10. Nothing is just based on how us think the other is enjoying it based on perception. Again 17 YEARS! we still are vocal on every step because we are 2 different people . Yes we both want sex at the same time but the type of we both want at that time can be very different and very different at different points of the encounter. Some times it starts as a 10 anything gos but as stamina and certain let's say acts can take extra stuff ( to body has limits ) by the end it may be a 2 or 3 ending. . The opposite is true to we both may start out tired and only a 2 or 3 but by the end it ends up a 10 in kink. Then it's like didn't expect that.
All those scenarios are because of constantly asking "Do you like that" Do you want me to do this" Is this still working for you " " How do you want me to continue " etc etc....
Asking questions usually leads to I want this or that and her asking does that work for you or me just telling her I actually need this postion right now for various reasons. Like I have a bad knee so I can't do somethings some times or If I'm willing to play thru the pain like. Like sure I can try to do that my knees #### but let's try it or I'm sorry I can't do that know my knees pretty bad today can we try this instead ( usually want they want just in a more comfortable position to me.
By doing that and doing what your partner wants in the moment can lead and escalate quickly from earlier nose to yeses to different acts asked previously. Maybe they were not into that act when you asked at first but you did what they wanted at the time now they are all hot and bothered and want the next level so they ask you to do what you wanted to do to be all hot and bothered.
Like I'm just saying talking and asking questions recently during sex doesn't kill the mood. If any thing it enhances it because the worst she can say no but if you do what she likes and she's having a good time cuz you listened to her if not during that encounter maybe later in a different encounter she'll be open to some things you've asked in the past.
Communication is key in sex . Not just before and after but during. My partner shot down many ideas during but after some time and thought where she didn't need to make a in the moment type of decision started to suggest things herself and the only happened because we where constantly checking in.
I haven't ever been in to sex with a partner unless they were vocal about what was working or not during a sexual encounter. I don't like just going off perception. I'm a man I'm usually going to have a fun time but if my partner can give me feed back on what's working for her and what's not that's even better. I wanna have sex but I also want her to be having the same level of fun as I'm having and I'm no mind reader.
The scenarios your describing is from porn. But even what you see is discussed way before the camera is wrong. Even James Dean (Male actor) was in some hot water years ago for doing sex moves outside of what was discussed prior to shooting videos.
IMO the only base line to 2 partners is Dick going into a ##### or what ever your partner is. Or has. The moment of insertion happens the sexual contract is a moving agreement. Some times it's basic missionary and it starts and ends like that and some times it's starts as the basic sex agreement but through const communications you house ends up looking like someone broke in and you've got god knows what was used and you all lubed up and sweating in another part of the house not even rembinbering certain parts of what lead to it and that only happens from constant communication.
Just because you or your partner like some thing a minute ago dosen't mean you like it still.
I want to touch on your a strike comment just a bit. Short answer is yes , you ask .. " you want me to grap your hips , you want legs up or down? To want me to grab
Your tit's and how hard? You want me to pull your hair and how hard? You want me to rub your clit while I'm f you?
Sorry if sort of a "crude " post as you put it but this all seems pretty basic stuff... you want me to spank you? Do you want me to spank you like this or like this? Too light okay how bout this still to light ? Then how bought this then .
You pose the question about how it ruins the mood to much asking questions and you should just know . Brother I'm here to tell you the "you should just know falls under like 20 layers a minute in what consent is and isn't and what non conent ot what consent is changes especially in the matter of seconds both ways .
Like I said 17 years with my wife and we have known each other for 23 years consent sexually is a constant second by second update.
Last edited by combustiblefuel; 05-28-2025 at 05:42 AM.
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Communication is key in sex . Not just before and after but during. My partner shot down many ideas during but after some time and thought where she didn't need to make a in the moment type of decision started to suggest things herself and the only happened because we where constantly checking in.
Exactly! It seems like a lot of people in here think sex is just doing something to another person. If that's their view of sex, I can understand why they're concerned about consent. Maybe some of them are realizing they haven't been sufficient about obtaining consent and will re-think their attitudes in the future?
Yeah I’m kind of floored by some comments made here. I’ve been with my wife for 15 years, and I can’t even count the amount of times if asked if something was okay to do. Or the amount of times we’ve talked about things were okay with/like/want/don’t want/don’t even think about it. This is standard stuff.
“Ruining the mood” coming into that conversation is ####ing gross.
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And, the thing most people trying to make that clumsy point about consent are totally forgetting: especially if that person is a stranger who you just met.
If people think it’s “weird” to go around smacking to hurt, choking, or otherwise being rough with their partners (and especially strangers during their first encounter) and asking for consent before they do, then I’m sorry, those people have some very distorted, concerning views on sex and consent and are probably not good people.
That's not what was said though. It's weird to ask for consent with every action. Can I kiss you? Can I take off your shirt? Can I touch your breast?
If you're doing extreme actions then I don't think consent is the problem. This wasn't a group into BDSM this was a group being ignorant kids. If you're doing something to "hurt" as you say then that's beyond the scope of the situation and something entirely different. Do you mind if I choke you to death? Do you mind if I beat the crap out of you?
Yeah I’m kind of floored by some comments made here. I’ve been with my wife for 15 years, and I can’t even count the amount of times if asked if something was okay to do. Or the amount of times we’ve talked about things were okay with/like/want/don’t want/don’t even think about it. This is standard stuff. .
I expect most couples have had these sorts of exchanges (though you may be surprised at how many couples don’t talk at all about or during sex).
But I doubt you have secured consent at every stage of every sexual encounter you’ve ever had together. Sexual contact includes kissing, intimate caresses, etc. Testing the waters is not a legal defence. And previous consent or long-standing intimacy does not imply future consent. Maybe you behaved exactly the same in your 1,000th sexual contact with your partner than you did in your first. But I’d wager that’s far from common.
You approach a woman from behind as she’s making scrambled eggs and kiss her on the neck. As I understand it (and I’m happy to be corrected) this is sexual contact without consent, and the law makes no distinction whether she’s a stranger, someone you’ve been dating for a month, or your spouse of 20 years. Most people will regard those as very different situations, and behave accordingly. Under the law they are not different.
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Originally Posted by fotze
If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
"how about Daddy gives you a little spank, bad girl" or something like that is a way you could ask while still giving off "mood" vibes if you're really struggling. It's really, really not complicated and again i feel that if this type of interaction during sex is ruining someone's mood, something else ain't right!
