[News] CalgaryNEXT Announcement. New arena details emerge.

[Barnes]

Some good points raised here:

The West Village Area Redevelopment Plan (ARP), approved by the city in 2010, realigns westbound Bow Trail away from its current route along the river, shifting it one block south to make way for a riverfront promenade.
The promenade is envisioned as a “wide pedestrian zone” with cafés, shops and space for events. It wouldn’t just be a commuting corridor for pedestrians and cyclists, but an amenity in itself, much like the RiverWalk in East Village, which has been hosting large events like Market Collective and Opera in the Village.

http://www.metronews.ca/views/calgar...lkability.html

As shown, CalgaryNEXT will do what City Hall did to the East Village and isolate the river.

[442scotty]

If anyone here has ever been to San Antonio, their river walk area is amazing.. Surely they can incorporate the arena into the concept with shops, cafes, walkways etc running along the outer, river side... As much as I want the new complex I wouldn't want it to choke off the potential of the area as a green, people friendly place to hang out

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by 442scotty

If anyone here has ever been to San Antonio, their river walk area is amazing.. Surely they can incorporate the arena into the concept with shops, cafes, walkways etc running along the outer, river side... As much as I want the new complex I wouldn't want it to choke off the potential of the area as a green, people friendly place to hang out

Yikes, you could have something very vaguely similar, as in maybe have some business somewhat near the river, lol. But you know as well as I do that the Bow river is volatile and willing to expand in very significantly during even minor floods.

Apples and oranges. San Antonio's Riverwalk is awesome, but their "river" is a creek compared to what we're dealing with here. Not comparable at all, imo.

[442scotty]

true enough lol

But global warming will turn the Bow into a creek... problem solved

[trew]

Originally Posted by Barnes

Some good points raised here:



http://www.metronews.ca/views/calgar...lkability.html

As shown, CalgaryNEXT will do what City Hall did to the East Village and isolate the river.

This is why I figure the Fieldhouse is really not good feature of the CalgaryNEXT proposal, even despite the proposed cost savings. A fieldhouse development will push the entire west village away from the rest of downtown, will reduce the value of the land to be developed, collect less taxes, and deny the city of the full potential of this land.

With that said, I do think that there is room to incorporate the hockey arena and event center, especially if the development can be put on the SE corner of the West Village lands (limited to the Mercedes and Greyhound sites). This should, hopefully, leave enough space to re-align bow trail and allow some the nicest elements of the West Village design to be realized. (Including the riverside development, and the "grand staircase" up to the Ctrain platform).

There also would not need to be much done in the way of immediate remediation to get the arena development underway, as the Greyhound and Mercedes sites are entirely outside of the former Canadian Creosote lands.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by trew

With that said, I do think that there is room to incorporate the hockey arena and event center,

Haha, it's been mentioned a bunch of times in this thread, but there isn't three big venues being proposed here, it's just a hockey arena and field house. The hockey arena IS the event centre when you look at the proposal.

[badger89]

Nothing new here, but it's a good overview of the proposal and how it's somewhat following the standard playbook for owners asking for public funding for a new stadium.
http://grantland.com/the-triangle/ho...ressure-pitch/

[Bingo]

How else can these things go though? A lot of the issues are just realities aren't they?

Both buildings are old, hard to argue that.
They need new ones.

They're trying to find a solution that works for everyone. I cringe when King speaks but I also get that without city involvement they won't build a new football stadium, and the new rink will be near Airdrie (example), and the west village and creosote issue will just lay dormant.

I'm all for a new building downtown, both selfishly and as a Calgarian with pride. I don't think either side should pay for all of it given the issues. Hope this whole thing doesn't get so polarized that it grinds into the ground and goes away.

[trew]

Originally Posted by jayswin

Haha, it's been mentioned a bunch of times in this thread, but there isn't three big venues being proposed here, it's just a hockey arena and field house. The hockey arena IS the event centre when you look at the proposal.

Yep, I understand that (perhaps should've wrote arena/event center instead of "arena and event center"). Still the same idea. I think there's room for one huge building, not two, (and certainly not three!).

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by Bingo

How else can these things go though? A lot of the issues are just realities aren't they?

Both buildings are old, hard to argue that.
They need new ones.

They're trying to find a solution that works for everyone. I cringe when King speaks but I also get that without city involvement they won't build a new football stadium, and the new rink will be near Airdrie (example), and the west village and creosote issue will just lay dormant.

I'm all for a new building downtown, both selfishly and as a Calgarian with pride. I don't think either side should pay for all of it given the issues. Hope this whole thing doesn't get so polarized that it grinds into the ground and goes away.

I'll buy that they need a new arena...sure, but why do the Stampeders need a new football stadium?

[RM14]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

I'll buy that they need a new arena...sure, but why do the Stampeders need a new football stadium?

Because the cost to upgrade McMahon is too high for what would be the outcome. It makes more sense to start from scratch.

[Big Erned Nevergivn]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

I'll buy that they need a new arena...sure, but why do the Stampeders need a new football stadium?

Much like the Dome, McMahon is the oldest stadium in the CFL. Also I believe all the buildings anywhere close to it's age have undergone major renovations, while McMahon gets a new coat of paint once a decade. A Football stadium would probably be more important than an arena if the CFL was important.

[442scotty]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

I'll buy that they need a new arena...sure, but why do the Stampeders need a new football stadium?

True enough... a lot of money for a few games of CFL football.. attendance declining across the league... the product is just ok...

I don't go to the games anymore but might if they had a covered stadium with better amenities and then a nice drink at a nearby river café after the game...

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Originally Posted by Bingo

How else can these things go though? A lot of the issues are just realities aren't they?

Both buildings are old, hard to argue that.
They need new ones.

They're trying to find a solution that works for everyone. I cringe when King speaks but I also get that without city involvement they won't build a new football stadium, and the new rink will be near Airdrie (example), and the west village and creosote issue will just lay dormant.

I'm all for a new building downtown, both selfishly and as a Calgarian with pride. I don't think either side should pay for all of it given the issues. Hope this whole thing doesn't get so polarized that it grinds into the ground and goes away.

This what I have been thinking as well. It shouldn't devolve into a pissing match, but I suppose you never know. Edmonton definitely had a long drawn out affair, but they are no good.
If I am not mistaken, the ball is now in the City's court to provide some feedback on the viability of the project. I think there is a way forward, but it will likely require both parties to acknowledge that each side is likely on the hook for bigger dollars than the original plan provided.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

I'll buy that they need a new arena...sure, but why do the Stampeders need a new football stadium?

The Stampeders need a new football stadium much, much more than the Flames need a new arena. It's that simple really. If you have ever been to a game at McMahon when the attendance approaches 28k the experience is passable as long as you go straight to your seat and never leave until the end of the game. If you need to use the restrooms or get some beer or snacks your only option is to miss game time because you can't do it at half time. Also if you have any sort of handicap or disability that hinders your walking it's terrible (I get this from older Stamps fans that feel McMahon isn't friendly to aging people) unless you are paying for the expensive lower bowl seats and the wheelchair people are stuck in the far end zone. It's simply a severely outdated facility.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

The Stampeders need a new football stadium much, much more than the Flames need a new arena. It's that simple really. If you have ever been to a game at McMahon when the attendance approaches 28k the experience is passable as long as you go straight to your seat and never leave until the end of the game. If you need to use the restrooms or get some beer or snacks your only option is to miss game time because you can't do it at half time. Also if you have any sort of handicap or disability that hinders your walking it's terrible (I get this from older Stamps fans that feel McMahon isn't friendly to aging people) unless you are paying for the expensive lower bowl seats and the wheelchair people are stuck in the far end zone. It's simply a severely outdated facility.

While I don't dissagree with any of the things you bring up, I actually agree with the poster when he says the city and the Flames need a new arena much more so than the Stamps need a football stadium.

Everything you say is true, but at the risk of offending the hard core CFL fans here, it's much more paramount that the Flames get a new rink and the city get a new indoor arena for events and concerts. The CFL is a secondary league, with much lower requirements and lower profitability ceiling than the arena with a stable NHL tenant. I also know many have grand thoughts of MLS teams and stadium concerts, but they aren't really likely outcomes or things that will happen frequently enough to warrant any investment in a new stadium. While I agree McMahon delivers a worse relative experience than the Dome does now, even when you factor in what should be lower expectations (which reflect in the price of tickets as well) of the CFL product, the truth of the matter is, if we did nothing to McMAhon for the next 20 years (outside of standard upgrades) the Stamps would continue to work as they do now. The same cannot be said of the Dome and the Flames. We have already been missing out on concerts now for years now, and somewhere in around 5 years from now the Dome truly will start to be not acceptable for an NHL team.

A city of this size in our climate really does need a ~18k or so arena assuming we have an NHL tenant and will look to attract concerts. And over time that arena Ned's to be refreshed or rebuilt. Our city does not need a 30K plus stadium with a main tenant being a CFL franchise. Not enough concerts will come through to justify, not enough other sports teams when all a CFL team truely needs is ~25k seats around a basic field with basic amenities.

Which is what I actually think the Flames are acknowledging with their proposal. The only way to really justify a new stadium like that for this city is if you make a multi purpose facility like they suggest, get some other use out of it. And don't get me wrong, I want it, and I will go to a few more Stamps games because of it, but it is still very much a nice to have even in the context of non essential items. This city IMO needs a fully functioning indoor arena to truly facilitate the cities entertainment needs, but it does not need a top notch stadium.

[Magnum PEI]

I find the lineups far worse at the saddledome. I can get a beer without missing a snap at McMahon. Theres always lineups at the Saddledome, even in 2013 when some sections of the 200 level were half empty.

[Hockeyguy15]

It wouldn't surprise me if there was some push from the U of C to get the Stamps to move, they probably want that land for expansion.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

While I don't dissagree with any of the things you bring up, I actually agree with the poster when he says the city and the Flames need a new arena much more so than the Stamps need a football stadium.

Everything you say is true, but at the risk of offending the hard core CFL fans here, it's much more paramount that the Flames get a new rink and the city get a new indoor arena for events and concerts. The CFL is a secondary league, with much lower requirements and lower profitability ceiling than the arena with a stable NHL tenant. I also know many have grand thoughts of MLS teams and stadium concerts, but they aren't really likely outcomes or things that will happen frequently enough to warrant any investment in a new stadium. While I agree McMahon delivers a worse relative experience than the Dome does now, even when you factor in what should be lower expectations (which reflect in the price of tickets as well) of the CFL product, the truth of the matter is, if we did nothing to McMAhon for the next 20 years (outside of standard upgrades) the Stamps would continue to work as they do now. The same cannot be said of the Dome and the Flames. We have already been missing out on concerts now for years now, and somewhere in around 5 years from now the Dome truly will start to be not acceptable for an NHL team.

A city of this size in our climate really does need a ~18k or so arena assuming we have an NHL tenant and will look to attract concerts. And over time that arena Ned's to be refreshed or rebuilt. Our city does not need a 30K plus stadium with a main tenant being a CFL franchise. Not enough concerts will come through to justify, not enough other sports teams when all a CFL team truely needs is ~25k seats around a basic field with basic amenities.

Which is what I actually think the Flames are acknowledging with their proposal. The only way to really justify a new stadium like that for this city is if you make a multi purpose facility like they suggest, get some other use out of it. And don't get me wrong, I want it, and I will go to a few more Stamps games because of it, but it is still very much a nice to have even in the context of non essential items. This city IMO needs a fully functioning indoor arena to truly facilitate the cities entertainment needs, but it does not need a top notch stadium.

Bah this is Flames fan talk as the Saddledome is a fully functional indoor arena. Yes it's out of date but it's fully functioning and facilitates the cities entertainment needs outside of a few top concerts. What makes you think the Fieldhouse/Stadium doesn't cover all these entertainment needs and more given it would be able to pull off soccer and large scale concerts? The fieldhouse is also a public venue that will get much more public use out of it as opposed to a private arena. If you are worried about taxpayer money being used at all at least a case can be made for the stadium as opposed to a private arena.

Look I believe the Flames need a new arena to compete in the NHL landscape but there is no way you will ever be able to convince me that a new arena would benefit Calgarians more than the proposed fieldhouse/stadium because that would be totally false.

[Ducay]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

I'll buy that they need a new arena...sure, but why do the Stampeders need a new football stadium?

Originally Posted by RM14

Because the cost to upgrade McMahon is too high for what would be the outcome. It makes more sense to start from scratch.

I think everyone for or against the current iteration of the proposal can agree: the Dome and McMahon are outdated, and expensive to reno, and would totally make sense to build new locations for them, and yes, the cost savings of building together makes sense. But the amount of public funding involved in building new stadiums (essentially) exclusively for private enterprise is sheer madness.

And that's excluding any provincial costs of remediation of the site.

You go look on the internet, and find one good article where taxpayers have won by heavily subsidizing (through whatever mechanism they want to call it) an arena? It effectively never ends well in this high cost day and age.