Matthew Tkachuk & Johnny Gaudreau Signing Watch Thread

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Yes, him trading the biggest star in Calgary would go over so well. Continue with your out to lunch theories though. When have you seen an actual sign and trade in the NHL, let alone a star player? Sit down and shut up.

I never said it was something that could logically be done.

You are deflecting the goal post to hide the point you made, which was Treliving should trick Johnny into doing a sign and trade and then not trade him.

Think about that for a second.

The most ridiculous statement I have ever seen here.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

I never said it was something that could logically be done.

You are deflecting the goal post to hide the point you made, which was Treliving should trick Johnny into doing a sign and trade and then not trade him.

Think about that for a second.

The most ridiculous statement I have ever seen here.

That is because that is not what I said, you constantly twist things to fit your narrative. I said if Johnny wants a sign and trade they should just keep him for a better offer than DeBrusk. But you do you. If you think what you misread is ridiculous I will be happy to quote plenty of your ideas that put that to shame.

[MrMike]

Tkachuk one year to UFA might not want to sign an extension with us
Pastrnak one year to UFA may not want to sign extension with Boston

If we sign Gaudreau I would make that deal happen.

Pastrnak natural goal scorer
Tkachuk younger and someone Boston could retool around.

Gaudreau - Lindholm - Pastrnak would be lethal for goal scoring.

[dissentowner]

Let's suppose it is a possibility of a sign and trade. If BT is remotely competent he starts shopping that around at least a week before free agency or has reached out to see what teams would offer for 8 years of Gaudreau. Are we really ok with the best offer being DeBrusk from Boston? What would NJ offer? Philly? The NYI? None of these teams can beat that offer? For a elite player coming off 115 point season? Or was the idea that BT was going to throw this idea out an hour from FA? He isn't that incompetent. Debate a sign and trade if you like, have at it but don't act like the Flames should be grateful they get anything at all when there is plenty of time to start a bidding war if done properly. Jake DeBrusk for 8 years of Johnny Gaudreau....my God.

[MrMike]

I was hoping my ridiculous trade offer would change the subject of fighting about a sign and trade.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by MrMike

I was hoping my ridiculous trade offer would change the subject of fighting about a sign and trade.

If Pasta was a certainty to sign here I would do that deal in a microsecond.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Let's suppose it is a possibility of a sign and trade. If BT is remotely competent he starts shopping that around at least a week before free agency or has reached out to see what teams would offer for 8 years of Gaudreau. Are we really ok with the best offer being DeBrusk from Boston? What would NJ offer? Philly? The NYI? None of these teams can beat that offer? For a elite player coming off 115 point season? Or was the idea that BT was going to throw this idea out an hour from FA? He isn't that incompetent. Debate a sign and trade if you like, have at it but don't act like the Flames should be grateful they get anything at all when there is plenty of time to start a bidding war if done properly. Jake DeBrusk for 8 years of Johnny Gaudreau....my God.

For an elite player you’d be able to get for free with one less year on a contract a week later.

For a sign and trade to work, it has to be somewhere the player is willing to sign for a contract the player is willing to sign. So the value isn’t “8 years of an elite player coming off an 115 point season,” it’s having to negotiate the next contract with that player when they’re 36 instead of 35.

It doesn’t matter if the NYI can beat the offer if Johnny likes the Boston contract better, he’ll simply not sign the contract and wait for FA.

[OptimalTates]

I still think there’s a disconnect here. With the sign and trade, Gaudreau still gets all the say. He isn’t signing 8 years with the Flames and then the Flames deciding if they are trading him or not, they aren’t picking the best trade offer from the Islanders, Devils and friends. You aren’t trading Gaudreau signed at 8 years for what he would be worth if that was the actual case. You’re trading him for the difference between what the team is willing to pay to get the 8th year.

If Gaudreau makes it known that he’s signing with the Flyers and the Flyers are only going to offer a fifth round pick for the 8th year or they’ll just sign him for 7 years, meh, not much you can do and probably not even worth it to trade. This is what happened with Tavares and Hyman and who knows who else.

If the Flyers are willing to give a 2nd round pick though, I mean it’s better than nothing and the likelihood of Gaudreau and his maybe 0.5M smaller cap hit coming to bite the Flames in the butt is nearing zero, why not take the 2nd?

Sure try to maximize by hopefully having the Devils and Flyers bid against one another, but if Gaudreau isn’t signing with the Devils, he isn’t signing with the Devils. Flames don’t get to pick. The hope is that he’d be willing to sign for 8 years with multiple teams so that the Flames actually have some bargaining power but teams would be competing on both the contract itself and now the assets to acquire him, so it still won’t be an earth shattering amount.

I just can’t wrap my head around wanting to receive nothing over something like DeBrusk though. 25 goals, multi year super reasonable contract and still potential, why would you turn that down?

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

I said I would rather lose him for nothing than to lose him for just DeBrusk. I would rather lose him for nothing rather than sign him for 8 years for someone else unless the return is much better. I am not mad at anyone at all, I just think it seriously unrealistic we will see a sign and trade with our star player.

Originally Posted by dissentowner

That is because that is not what I said, you constantly twist things to fit your narrative. I said if Johnny wants a sign and trade they should just keep him for a better offer than DeBrusk. But you do you. If you think what you misread is ridiculous I will be happy to quote plenty of your ideas that put that to shame.

I gave you too much credit. You literally don't understand.

Jake Debrusk would be the best return ever (or at least in memory) for UFA rights. What's DeBrusk worth on the trade market? At least two 2nds? Probably quite a bit more considering he scored 25 goals last year. Pretty sure the 3rd for Bouw was the highest price paid in the article linked earlier. IMO 8th year signing rights should be worth about a 3rd+5th.


It's all moot as these deals don't happen unless the team+player have given up all hope of reaching a deal, which doesn't seem likely in this case...though I think there is a good chance Johnny's camp takes it right down to the wire as they likely have less to lose by doing so.


And just for fun, it seems like a good time to link this post

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

I gave you too much credit. You literally don't understand.

Jake Debrusk would be the best return ever (or at least in memory) for UFA rights. What's DeBrusk worth on the trade market? At least two 2nds? Probably quite a bit more considering he scored 25 goals last year. Pretty sure the 3rd for Bouw was the highest price paid in the article linked earlier. IMO 8th year signing rights should be worth about a 3rd+5th.


It's all moot as these deals don't happen unless the team+player have given up all hope of reaching a deal, which doesn't seem likely in this case...though I think there is a good chance Johnny's camp takes it right down to the wire as they likely have less to lose by doing so.


And just for fun, it seems like a good time to link this post

That is a perfect time to link that seeing how I was the one who was originally personally attacked and then it's been a dog pile on me ever since. The more I stated my opinion in it the more I got piled on. Welcome to social media. Anyhow you don't get it do you? If BT signed and traded JG for let's say DeBrusk the backlash from your average fan would be huge. They would not give a rats ass if he was leaving anyhow, all they would see is you traded our superstar most popular player for pennies on the dollar instead of trying to see if you can get him to come back right until the last second that he signs somewhere else. Other teams would think they could take advantage of BT so he would have to be fired between that and the fan outrage. Season ticket holders would bail by the droves. We are at this point because BT has to have a very good idea he can get Gaudreau signed, he will try and make that happen until he signs elsewhere because any other result sees him handed his walking papers.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

That is a perfect time to link that seeing how I was the one who was originally personally attacked and then it's been a dog pile on me ever since. The more I stated my opinion in it the more I got piled on. Welcome to social media. Anyhow you don't get it do you? If BT signed and traded JG for let's say DeBrusk the backlash from your average fan would be huge. They would not give a rats ass if he was leaving anyhow, all they would see is you traded our superstar most popular player for pennies on the dollar instead of trying to see if you can get him to come back right until the last second that he signs somewhere else. Other teams would think they could take advantage of BT so he would have to be fired between that and the fan outrage. Season ticket holders would bail by the droves. We are at this point because BT has to have a very good idea he can get Gaudreau signed, he will try and make that happen until he signs elsewhere because any other result sees him handed his walking papers.

The premise of the original post is that Johnny has let it be known that he is signing elsewhere and will not be back to Calgary. So, trying to see if you can get him to come back is contrary to the initial premise.

At that stage, it’s really a moot point that if Calgary can get anything from that scenario , it is better than nothing.

[PepsiFree]

Only on CP can I watch someone spend 7 hours arguing against a hypothetical hockey scenario they don’t even understand the basic mechanics of, all while doing it as condescendingly as possible with a “can’t you read?” every second post, and then turn around and pretend they’re the ones being bullied.

Bless this thread.

[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

OK, how about Zibanejad. Point. Rantanen. Ovechkin.

Point, RFA signing in Florida. No dice!

Ovechkin's Ovechkin, I'm sure he could have got a lot more in free agency if he wanted to chase the money but we're also talking about a contract that kicked in when he was 36.

Rantanen, again, we're talking about a contract that's 4 years RFA and 2 year UFA. It's his next contract that will be "comparable" to Gaudreau's upcoming one. You can discount RFA years but Hamilton is making as much as Makar, Fox and Heiskanen.

Zibanejad I feel like he is having his coming out party this playoffs. I could be mistaken, I didn't watch much of the 75 points in 57 games, but I was under the impression that the years prior his line was the de facto number 1 in New York with Zucs. 47 points in 72 games (Zucs leading with 53 points), followed by 74 in 82.

But then Panarin came and Panarin's line became the number 1 line and opened up space for Zibanejad and Kreider on that second line and a strong PP unit with Panarin. Sort of a a Draisaitl-lite-esque. But I didn't watch much of the Rangers in 2020.

Still he signed his contract after a 50 point (in 56 games) season. I got lambasted for suggesting that maybe Gaudreau wasn't as good as McDavid in the Hart Trophy thread, now he's comparable to a guy who signed after getting 50 points?

This is similar to my argument with dissentowner in that there just isn't a lot of comparables given the situation. Name the top tier players who entered UFA under 30 in recent years? It's Panarin and Tavares to me. When Tavares signed his contract he became the 2nd highest cap-hit in the league behind McDavid. When Panarin signed his contract he became the 2nd highest cap-hit in the league behind McDavid. Both of whom were allegedly to have been offered more but turned it down for their specific teams. I see no reason Gaudreau couldn't do the same if he wanted to, I mean if he was willing to sign anywhere simply chasing the highest cap-hit, I could even see him surpassing McDavid.

One contract that I do think gives the Flames some leverage is Barkov. In a vacuum, I take Barkov over Gaudreau. Younger, center, Selke quality defense while flirting with 100 points (107 point pace this year). But again it's a Florida tax contract. 1M salary, 9M signing bonus average. Plus Barkov only has established roots in Florida as a Finnish player so it's not like he was looking to go home like Tavares or potentially Gaudreau.

Ultimately I think Gaudreau goes home and takes a bit of a discount leaving money on the table from a random team that we probably don't even hear about, but if Panarin was courting at least 4 teams with 11.5-12.5M offers, I don't see why Gaudreau wouldn't be.

[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

The premise of the original post is that Johnny has let it be known that he is signing elsewhere and will not be back to Calgary. So, trying to see if you can get him to come back is contrary to the initial premise.

At that stage, it’s really a moot point that if Calgary can get anything from that scenario , it is better than nothing.

You're talking to a guy who doesn't think so. A guy who thinks that they would have to fire Treliving if he got something instead of nothing for him. It's like the Cammalleri non-trade. Better to not trade him and not get assets than to trade him for too little, which of course worked out amazing for Burke and the Flames.

[Erick Estrada]

If Johnny told the Flames that he was going to test free agency I think a sign and trade for a late round pick would be pretty low on Treliving's priorities as he would immediately move to signing Tkachuk long term and moving on to a contingency plan such as Forsberg as I think there's still a lot of pressure to win with Darryl as head coach and the Flames would be aggressive pursuing a big name replacement.

[Stillman16]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

If Johnny told the Flames that he was going to test free agency I think a sign and trade for a late round pick would be pretty low on Treliving's priorities as he would immediately move to signing Tkachuk long term and moving on to a contingency plan such as Forsberg as I think there's still a lot of pressure to win with Darryl as head coach and the Flames would be aggressive pursuing a big name replacement.

True, but he wouldn't need to be part of the discussion much until the contract numbers were agreed.

If it was clear Johnny was going to leave, Treliving could just say, try to find yourself a deal, and if they want 8 years, I'll try to agree on the compensation.

It is a difficult idea to facilitate this, as it helps your rival teams, but it also can help all teams, as it keeps the comparables lower...

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Only on CP can I watch someone spend 7 hours arguing against a hypothetical hockey scenario they don’t even understand the basic mechanics of, all while doing it as condescendingly as possible with a “can’t you read?” every second post, and then turn around and pretend they’re the ones being bullied.

Bless this thread.

Only on CP can I watch a poster constantly troll and stir the pot and contribute absolutely nothing and somehow still be allowed to do so on a daily basis. Go back to the Off Topic board where you usually lurk to create drama.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Anyhow you don't get it do you? If BT signed and traded JG for let's say DeBrusk the backlash from your average fan would be huge.

Why do you think a team would give anything significant for the right to sign Gaudreau to an extra year? The average fan will be pissed if he walks either way and most season ticket holders would understand the trade.
Gaudreau walking would suck but if that's what he has decided then the Flames might get a 3rd or something for his rights.

[BlackRedGold25]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Only on CP can I watch a poster constantly troll and stir the pot and contribute absolutely nothing and somehow still be allowed to do so on a daily basis.

No mirrors in your mom's basement?

[Strange Brew]

A sign and trade where the signing team needs to move some salary would make sense. You wouldn’t take on a bad contract to do it obviously.