Just because I want something doesn't mean I would impose it. If all Christians shared that view, I'd view them a lot more favorably.
I never said you would impose it (not that you have the power to anyway). I just wanted to confirm what you were saying.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SebC
That said, I am absolutely in favor of limits on freedom of speech and freedom of religion. They're on the hierarchy of rights, but they're not at the top. There are other, more importants rights that supercede freedom of speech and freedom of religion where they clash.
That's your belief and I will just say that I disagree and I'm not going to be pulled into some argument about hierarchy of rights.
A loving god that uses fear and the threat of eternal damnation? That does not compute.
That God sent his son to die for our sins to give a way to avoid eternal damnation. Each person has there own will to choose to accept that or not. If that doesn't compute for you there's nothing I can do to change that.
Okay, well to me I am willing to accept that I support missionaries in these countries who put there lives on the line to try to share the gospel so that those people in other countries can be better informed and make and informed decision.
But that doesn't get around the fact that you (and I when I believed) think that that's a better decision than most of the people on the planet.
That doesn't comes across as hubris? Why am I so special that I have the Truth that most others miss?
And I don't think most of those missionaries actually try to make people better informed. On no mission trip that I participated in was I ever encouraged to share information on Islam, Buddhism, Wicca, Hinduism, etc.. They're out there trying to convert people to what they think is the Truth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockin' Flames
Well we're just going have to agree to disagree with on that.
Why do you disagree? By what criteria has the Bible shown unambiguously that it alone holds the truth, as opposed to holy writings from other religions?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockin' Flames
Well I've answered my questions to my satisfaction and I'm sorry you couldn't answer your questions to your satisfaction.
Well I do keep asking, so maybe someday I'll get an answer. If god was out there and wanted them to be answered, I would expect an answer, so if there are no answers, there's really only two conclusions.. either god doesn't want the questions answered, or there's no one there to answer.
I never said anything about force. I was simply confirming that he doesn't believe in free speech or freedom of religion.
As absolutes? No, I don't.
Heck, just absolute freedom of speech and absolute freedom of religion cannot co-exist. Absolute freedom of speech includes the right to blasphemy, while absolute freedom of religion would allow the religious to act on beliefs that blasphemy must be punished by death. (Of course, killing blasphemers would kind of infringe on their right to free speech.)
Absolute freedom of religion cannot co-exist with any other rights, because anyone can make up a religion that tells them anything they want to do is okay.
I apologize if I'm sounding like an ass. I went to church today to be there for the baptism of my niece and nephew. It was the first time in my life I had ever been to a church service (besides weddings and funerals.) What I witnessed there horrified me.
It sounded exactly like this, except with words of worship.
Well I do keep asking, so maybe someday I'll get an answer. If god was out there and wanted them to be answered, I would expect an answer, so if there are no answers, there's really only two conclusions.. either god doesn't want the questions answered, or there's no one there to answer.
Athiest wants his wager back
Quote:
As with Pascal's Wager, the Atheist's Wager suffers from the logical fallacy of the false dilemma, relying on the assumption that the only possibilities are:
a benevolent god exists and punishes or rewards according to one's actions, or
a benevolent god does not exist.
That God sent his son to die for our sins to give a way to avoid eternal damnation. Each person has there own will to choose to accept that or not. If that doesn't compute for you there's nothing I can do to change that.
Say there's a girl I like, I want her to marry me.
So I go to her and say, either you marry me, or I will lock you in chains in my basement forever.
Of course she agrees to marry me. Has she done it of her own free will? Of course not, she's being coerced.
And each person does not have the option to choose that.
Many people live and die without ever hearing of Jesus at all. Many people never know there's an important choice to be made so they don't read the Bible. Many people read the Bible but reason that the morality of it is bankrupt so don't believe. Many people read the Bible and research the history of it and decide that the conflicting themes and theology make it impossible to base a life on. Many people read the Bible and observe reality and see that the two don't match enough to make the Bible compelling. Many people read the Bible and find no acceptable theodicy. Many people read the holy books of other religions and find those more compelling and complete.
People are approaching the question and the issue honestly and directly and find the information insufficient to make a good decision.
If there's a test, and the material necessary to pass the test is partially hidden, doesn't meet reasonable criteria to accept, and is tossed in among lots of other material which if I accept will actually make me fail without any reasonable way to tell the difference between the material that'll help me pass and the material that'll make me fail, well that's not a fair test to begin with.
You should live your life and try to make the world a better place for your being in it, whether or not you believe in god. If there is no god, you have lost nothing and will be remembered fondly by those you left behind. If there is a benevolent god, he will judge you on your merits and not just on whether or not you believed in him
But I already do live my life and the world a better place (not because God wants me to, but because it's the right thing to do).
The problem with this is that there's the assumption that god will judge me on my merits, but according to many Christians this is false, they say that no matter how meritous I am I can never attain salvation, and no matter how bad I am as long as I believe I'll be saved.
Calgaryborn posted the scripture earlier in the thread even.
So even if I live a good life I still go to hell, so I'm back to rolling the dice and hoping that the god I believe in is the right one.
EDIT: If I took the path Finny61 takes I'd choose to believe that whatever god there is would value self-honesty over simple belief, so whatever conclusion I come to is ok as long as I came to it honestly and truthfully, even if it's the wrong one. Kind of like how I teach my kid.
That God sent his son to die for our sins to give a way to avoid eternal damnation. Each person has there own will to choose to accept that or not. If that doesn't compute for you there's nothing I can do to change that.
Virgin birth,resurrection,walking on water...etc = fairy-tails
But that doesn't get around the fact that you (and I when I believed) think that that's a better decision than most of the people on the planet.
That doesn't comes across as hubris? Why am I so special that I have the Truth that most others miss?
And I don't think most of those missionaries actually try to make people better informed. On no mission trip that I participated in was I ever encouraged to share information on Islam, Buddhism, Wicca, Hinduism, etc.. They're out there trying to convert people to what they think is the Truth.
Based upon your knowledge I suspect you know that all those religions also have missionaries. Each one is trying to convert people to what they think is the truth and thus the information of all the different religions is being spread and people will make the choices they make.
Just curious what made you stop believing and how long were you a believer before you stopped?
Quote:
Originally Posted by photon
Why do you disagree? By what criteria has the Bible shown unambiguously that it alone holds the truth, as opposed to holy writings from other religions?
I disagree based upon what I've heard from people and what little research I've done. I don't have anything else to give you on this that's going to change your mind clearly, but I also will not change my mind because based upon what I've seen God do in my life an the lives of people around me I have faith that what I believe is right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by photon
Well I do keep asking, so maybe someday I'll get an answer. If god was out there and wanted them to be answered, I would expect an answer, so if there are no answers, there's really only two conclusions.. either god doesn't want the questions answered, or there's no one there to answer.
Well hopefully one day you will get an answer you will find satisfactory.
Say there's a girl I like, I want her to marry me.
So I go to her and say, either you marry me, or I will lock you in chains in my basement forever.
Of course she agrees to marry me. Has she done it of her own free will? Of course not, she's being coerced.
This doesn't match up. Clearly God has given everyone the ability to choose or else everyone would be Christians, which is unlike your scenario.
Quote:
Originally Posted by photon
And each person does not have the option to choose that.
I have to disagree there. It's my belief that every person will hear of God at least once in their lifetime and have the choice. On the rare occasion where a person has not had the opportunity to learn of Jesus and his salvation I do believe they will go to heaven. I have no proof of this just my belief.
Quote:
Originally Posted by photon
Many people live and die without ever hearing of Jesus at all. Many people never know there's an important choice to be made so they don't read the Bible. Many people read the Bible but reason that the morality of it is bankrupt so don't believe. Many people read the Bible and research the history of it and decide that the conflicting themes and theology make it impossible to base a life on. Many people read the Bible and observe reality and see that the two don't match enough to make the Bible compelling. Many people read the Bible and find no acceptable theodicy. Many people read the holy books of other religions and find those more compelling and complete.
People are approaching the question and the issue honestly and directly and find the information insufficient to make a good decision.
If there's a test, and the material necessary to pass the test is partially hidden, doesn't meet reasonable criteria to accept, and is tossed in among lots of other material which if I accept will actually make me fail without any reasonable way to tell the difference between the material that'll help me pass and the material that'll make me fail, well that's not a fair test to begin with.
Again people make the choices they make based upon their own beliefs or research. That's there decision and they will have to live with it. Just as I said before if I believe in the wrong God than I will have to live with the decision I've made. I made a choice that I believe is correct and I think I've made the correct decision and am happy with the decision I've made.
Based upon your knowledge I suspect you know that all those religions also have missionaries. Each one is trying to convert people to what they think is the truth and thus the information of all the different religions is being spread and people will make the choices they make.
They try, but of course the "coverage" is going to be incomplete. So you're still left with people that do not get the chance to choose, or even know there's a choice.
And I'm curious, why didn't you answer this question: That doesn't comes across as hubris? Why am I so special that I have the Truth that most others miss?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockin' Flames
Just curious what made you stop believing and how long were you a believer before you stopped?
I was a believer for probably almost 30 years, hardly ever missed going to church at least once a week (if not 2, 3 or 4 times a week), was very involved in all different kinds of ministry and leadership.
What made me stop believing? Well I think it started when things I was being told didn't line up with the reality I was observing. So I decided to figure out why I believed what I believed, get back to basics I think I thought at the time. And as I started to read more of the Bible and more of the history of Christianity (and religion in general), the more I found outright contradicted the claims of other believers and the claims in the Bible. And during that process I was exposed to bigger questions (like the problem of evil) that there were no good answers to, which forced me to conclude that the god described in the Bible doesn't exist. There may be a deist kind of god, but not the interventionist one.
Like many I've talked to and read, it wasn't something I did willingly, I was forced kicking and screaming into.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockin' Flames
I disagree based upon what I've heard from people and what little research I've done.
Well I encourage you to continue to research.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockin' Flames
Well hopefully one day you will get an answer you will find satisfactory.
And if I don't? Am I condemned for being honest with myself?
The Following User Says Thank You to photon For This Useful Post:
They try, but of course the "coverage" is going to be incomplete. So you're still left with people that do not get the chance to choose, or even know there's a choice.
And I'm curious, why didn't you answer this question: That doesn't comes across as hubris? Why am I so special that I have the Truth that most others miss?
As I mentioned before if you are presented with the truth and choose not to accept it than there is nothing hubris about it. That is a choice you make of free will. I also believe that the very small amount of people that never hear of Jesus and his salvation will go to heaven.
Quote:
Originally Posted by photon
I was a believer for probably almost 30 years, hardly ever missed going to church at least once a week (if not 2, 3 or 4 times a week), was very involved in all different kinds of ministry and leadership.
What made me stop believing? Well I think it started when things I was being told didn't line up with the reality I was observing. So I decided to figure out why I believed what I believed, get back to basics I think I thought at the time. And as I started to read more of the Bible and more of the history of Christianity (and religion in general), the more I found outright contradicted the claims of other believers and the claims in the Bible. And during that process I was exposed to bigger questions (like the problem of evil) that there were no good answers to, which forced me to conclude that the god described in the Bible doesn't exist. There may be a deist kind of god, but not the interventionist one.
Like many I've talked to and read, it wasn't something I did willingly, I was forced kicking and screaming into.
Well I was never forced kicking and screaming into accepting Christ as my saviour.
Quote:
Originally Posted by photon
And if I don't? Am I condemned for being honest with myself?
Since you used to be a believer I think you know I can't answer that. Only God can and will make that determination. In my opinion (just my opinion and I mean no offense when I say this) I don't know if you are being honest with yourself or being led astray.
Location: A simple man leading a complicated life....
Exp:
Quote:
Originally Posted by photon
That's true some do, and it's fair to criticize that if they're being inconsistent. But I don't think it's fair to call an entire group "guilty" or "no better" than another group. Groups are made of individuals.. Taking the group as a whole is only valid if discussing some intrinsic feature of the entire group.
Christianity has a set of beliefs that define it, but there's only lack of belief that defines atheists.
I realise it's not fair to call a whole group guilty or no better. my bad for not being more clear on that point.
Quote:
Christians outnumber atheists (though Christians themselves will argue strongly about other groups of Christians having the right to call themselves Christian) by a long shot. And I've talked with many many people who cannot be honest about what they think.. even here in Canada.
That really surprises me.
Quote:
Everyone's different, when I did that sort of thing, my thought process was that I knew the only way to avoid going to hell and suffering for all eternity.. so I'm morally obligated to share it, if I didn't I'm partially responsible.
I didn't feel I was responsible for other peoples choices. Part of the reason is I didn't view Hell as a place for suffering and the related stuff. In fact I never thought of it as Hell but moreso as seperation from God and all that he stood for. Just a place where people went that didn't believe in God.
Much of my beliefs weren't really Bible based as my faith at the time didn't hinge of what the Bible said. They were my own conclusions at the time that made sense to me.
Quote:
I'm kind of in the middle.. I don't go around asking people "hey, did you know that we all evolved from a common ancestor?", but I do enjoy discussing such things when they come up. But then again I also like discussing cars, computers, games, physics, and lots of other things when those topics come up.
I guess I just don't understand why other people don't understand why it is something people want to discuss, believe or not. It's a significant feature of our society and impacts everyone, believe or not.
I'm not the kind of person who doesn't always feels comfortable discussings thing with people in person. I tend to go online looking for discussions to read or through reading books or websites. I may not post much in these type of discussions but I do learn a lot from reading all the comments on the issue.
Just curious, exactly what do you figure I can't grasp?
Well for starters your posts betray little understanding of the christian faith in general let along its various sects. You also like to take little drive-by shots at posters such as myself which only makes you appear shallow and juvenile. You add very little to any conversation.
Also, your belief system by all accounts is most miserable. It lacks joy, peace and comfort. Your only hope is that when you take your last breath that you will never feel or know anything again. Even your hope lacks promise but, rather is one of refuge from far worse fates.
As a Christian I have strong and yes negative opinions concerning the beliefs of Atheists, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and the million or so other religions around the world. I also have strong negative opinions of various christian sects who have left orthodox Christian doctrine to embrace heresies or some compromised gospel. I fully embrace my intolerance because I know that the alternative is to embrace others beliefs at the expense of fidelity to my own.
Having said that I have never been compelled to hurt someone because of their offensive beliefs; Nor have I ever tried to silence someone of another faith. You see the center of my belief system is the Gospel which promises an immediate and eternal mending of a previously broken relationship with the Creator. Gospel means "Good News". That positive exists at the core of my religion. A place where all other belief systems have no voice. We don't go to church on Sunday for the purpose of ripping holes in other belief systems. You frankly aren't on the radar. Sure other beliefs are discussed at times when we are looking at contrasts or warning of heresies but, that isn't our focus. Our focus is that new relationship and the promises attached to that.
Your belief system unlike mine is a dark one. At its core there is only contempt for other belief systems. It is negative. You can argue this point all you want but, I've been listening to your guys dribble for a few years now and frankly it is not only at its core but, is the whole apple. You've got nothing else. The reason why you atheist go out of your way to start these endless threads is that is the whole expression of your religion. Your not trying to help anybody because if that was the case you would be approaching people as a friend. No all you are doing is expressing the contempt you feel in side. I can see it in your posts and in how you all like to dog pile on whatever faith is on the menu that day.
Your rewards make up a very brief finale paragraphed. You on rare occasion might get the satisfaction of pulling someone else down into the mire in which you reside. Beyond that you get a smug pride from believing that you are on the winning side of the argument. Little do you know that pride goeth before a fall and great pride before a great fall.
The Following User Says Thank You to Calgaryborn For This Useful Post:
As a Christian I have strong and yes negative opinions concerning the beliefs of Atheists, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and the million or so other religions around the world. I also have strong negative opinions of various christian sects who have left orthodox Christian doctrine to embrace heresies or some compromised gospel. I fully embrace my intolerance because I know that the alternative is to embrace others beliefs at the expense of fidelity to my own.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calgaryborn
Your belief system unlike mine is a dark one. At its core there is only contempt for other belief systems. It is negative.
Yeah, that sounds like a real "bright" belief system. Smiles and sunshine all around.
To sum up, you believe pretty much everyone but you and your like-minded pals are going to spend eternity in misery, while the mysterious master of the universe has singled y'all out for paradise.
No contempt or negativity in that at all. Sounds like you are living in heaven on earth already.
Then what is the meaning of life with no existence of a God or outside party? Collectively as humans what are we? For a second who cares about how nice we are.
Thats probably the saddest thing I've read, you really don't know the answer to this question? How deeply meaningful your existence must be.
I'll try to give it a simple answer. Meaning of life is love, the mysteries of the unknown, the poetry of the world we live in and the universe in which we exist. Our curiosity and learning is something that pushes and inspires me daily to learn and better understand our place in the cosmos. I have one shot at existence in a fleeting moment in cosmic time, I won't waste that time in superstition and fear of god, gods or some end of days/judgment.
The truth of reality and the cosmos puts to shame any man made creation myths, the world in which we live in is simply amazing to the point of giving us heathens spiritual experiences (religion can't hijack this feeling.)
I'll grow old and cherish every waking moment on this earth loving the experience and being excited every day about being born during an age where we are beginning to much more deeply understand our place in the cosmos.
Just re-watching Carl Sagan's cosmos again these last few weeks, if you ever needed to watch a series to get what you are missing in your line of thinking, that would be the series to watch.
__________________ Allskonar fyrir Aumingja!!
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Thor For This Useful Post:
