House passes Senate health care bill

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Azure

• Since there are no limits on prices and plans, there is no problem with "pre-existing conditions." Instead of refusing you, they'll just take that into account in their proposal. Buying medical insurance ALWAYS involves filling out a fairly extensive medical questionnaire, not only so they can see what your needs are but also so they can better evaluate their risks. Again, no government meddling involved.

I'm not sure how you can say that this avoids the issue with pre-existing conditions. All it does is shift the refusal to cover from a flat out refusal to a 'price you out' situation, either way people with expensive pre-existing conditions are left uncovered.

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally Posted by Gozer

The Republicans may have succeeded.

They saw reform and pissed and moaned until it was unrecognizably watered down, but Obama was so desperate to make a difference that he was willing to pas this abortion of reform.

I might be wrong, but I thought the bill passed without republican votes? IE democrats didn't need them, so how exactly did republicans water the reform down? The "reform" is 100% on the democrats.

Originally Posted by Gozer

The basic problem remains unaddressed: the health care - health insurance industry is unregulated and therefore has charges that bear no reasonable relationship to their costs. They FIX prices, and do so only because they hold an exemption from anti trust laws. It's the most stacked deck in all of America.

You CANNOT be serious. Think what you want about regulation/deregulation but to say that health care industry in the US is unregulated is a joke.

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

I might be wrong, but I thought the bill passed without republican votes? IE democrats didn't need them, so how exactly did republicans water the reform down? The "reform" is 100% on the democrats.

I said the republicans won. The fear and hyperbole that they put out with "death panels" and all that other rhetorical garbage about socialism worked.

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

You CANNOT be serious. Think what you want about regulation/deregulation but to say that health care industry in the US is unregulated is a joke.

Insurance companies commonly betray customers to their death to increase profits. Unregulated may be a misnomer, but patients are at the mercy of these companies. That's wrong.

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally Posted by Gozer

Insurance companies commonly betray customers to their death to increase profits. Unregulated may be a misnomer, but patients are at the mercy of these companies. That's wrong.

Because a dead customer is the best customer?

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally Posted by Gozer

I said the republicans won. The fear and hyperbole that they put out with "death panels" and all that other rhetorical garbage about socialism worked.

Why did democrats listen to fear and hyperboles of republicans if they didn't need their votes?

[badnarik]

What will stop people from dropping their insurance until they get sick? The fine is considerably smaller than the cost of health insurance.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by badnarik

What will stop people from dropping their insurance until they get sick? The fine is considerably smaller than the cost of health insurance.

That to me is a great question. What are the mechanics for that. A guy goes without health insurance, pays the fine. Then one day wakes up and feels completely like crap. Bleeding out of his ear etc. So he goes quickly to get insurance, they can't deny him based on existing or pre-existing condition can they?

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

Because a dead customer is the best customer?

Denying coverage is more profitable.

Insurance companies pay people to find any excuse to not cover people.

Skin rash when you were 8? Sorry, you didn't report that pre-existing condition so you'll have to pay for cancer treatment out of pocket. Sorry. You should have followed regulations.

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

Why did democrats listen to fear and hyperboles of republicans if they didn't need their votes?

'Cause they're chickenshinguards.

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

That to me is a great question. What are the mechanics for that. A guy goes without health insurance, pays the fine. Then one day wakes up and feels completely like crap. Bleeding out of his ear etc. So he goes quickly to get insurance, they can't deny him based on existing or pre-existing condition can they?

I remember that was addressed 'cause I had the same thought.
I'll see if I can find it.

edit; didn't find anything, but I remember that was at least in the early versions of the bill.
I'm sure it still is, the bill focuses on people gaming the system.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by valo403

[/LIST]I'm not sure how you can say that this avoids the issue with pre-existing conditions. All it does is shift the refusal to cover from a flat out refusal to a 'price you out' situation, either way people with expensive pre-existing conditions are left uncovered.

You forget the fact that the public system does still cover 75% of everything.

I'm not sure what they leave uncovered in the end.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

I thought everyone should know that "round two" is over. The House voted on the Senate's amendments to the bill, and it passed. Legislative action on the bill is now over.
http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/03/...ex.html?hpt=T1

Like the bill or hate it (I kind of do both) this is a huge legislative victory for the Dems. Spells trouble for the GOP in my view. They've painted themselves into a corner.

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

e it (I kind of do both) this is a huge legislative victory for the Dems. Spells trouble for the GOP in my view. They've painted themselves into a corner.

How do you figure? They run on "stop the spending" and "repeal the socialism."
It's tough to run out of moves when you're only goal is being a contrarian.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

I thought everyone should know that "round two" is over. The House voted on the Senate's amendments to the bill, and it passed. Legislative action on the bill is now over.
http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/03/...ex.html?hpt=T1

Like the bill or hate it (I kind of do both) this is a huge legislative victory for the Dems. Spells trouble for the GOP in my view. They've painted themselves into a corner.

Like Gozer said they've never gone to specifics when it came to disagreeing.

November could still go either way.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by Azure

Like Gozer said they've never gone to specifics when it came to disagreeing.

November could still go either way.

I'm not even talking about Congress. They may well win back Congress this Fall--in fact, history suggests they will. Traditionally the party out of office gains seats in midterm elections.

But I doubt they'll win back the White House as the "Party of No."

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

I'm not even talking about Congress. They may well win back Congress this Fall--in fact, history suggests they will. Traditionally the party out of office gains seats in midterm elections.

But I doubt they'll win back the White House as the "Party of No."

Much less as a party of Sarah Palin and Glenn Beck.

[cal_guy]

Originally Posted by badnarik

What will stop people from dropping their insurance until they get sick? The fine is considerably smaller than the cost of health insurance.

Well here in Alberta if you want to apply for Blue Cross prescription drug insurance you have to pay three months of premiums before you can get benefits, so I imagine they can implement something like this.

[Pastiche]

Probably the best summary I have read on the Health Care bill:

http://www.economist.com/world/unite...=hptextfeature

[Azure]

Wow. Didn't see this coming.

From here.

Individuals who fail to maintain minimum essential coverage in 2016 are subject to a penalty equal to the greater of: (1) 2.5 percent of household income in excess of the taxpayer’s household income for the taxable year over the threshold amount of income required for income tax return filing for that taxpayer under section 6012(a)(1);67 or (2) $695 per uninsured adult in the household. The fee for an uninsured individual under age 18 is one-half of the adult fee for an adult. The total household penalty may not exceed 300 percent of the per adult penalty ($2,085). The total annual household payment may not exceed the national average annual premium for bronze level health plan offered through the Exchange that year for the household size…

The penalty applies to any period the individual does not maintain minimum essential coverage and is determined monthly. The penalty is assessed through the Code and accounted for as an additional amount of Federal tax owed. However, it is not subject to the enforcement provisions of subtitle F of the Code. The use of liens and seizures otherwise authorized for collection of taxes does not apply to the collection of this penalty. Non-compliance with the personal responsibility requirement to have health coverage is not subject to criminal or civil penalties under the Code and interest does not accrue for failure to pay such assessments in a timely manner.

So in other words, if I understand this wording correctly, there is a 'penalty' for not having insurance, but it is not subject to certain 'enforcement provisions.' Like the quote says, what the IRS usually does when you don't pay your taxes(show up at your door, take you to jail if you don't)....that isn't authorized to be done in order to collect this 'penalty.'

NOT having health insurance, or not complying with the mandate that everyone should have health insurance is not subject to criminal or civil penalties. In other words, if you don't have health insurance, you won't be fined or taken to jail because of it. And there is no interest charged on your failure to have health insurance.

Long story short, the IRS is not allowed to actually enforce the mandate by any means. No past due accrual, interest, no penalties, no liens or garnishments for failure to pay, and no civil or criminal liability. Without enforcement, and no exclusion of preexisting conditions allowed, what will happen?

Well, unless I'm completely stupid, given that there is absolutely nothing in place to keep people from not having health insurance till they actually get sick, along with the fact that insurance companies aren't allowed to turn away someone based on pre-existing conditions the system surely has to go bankrupt.

The health care bill explicitly states that insurance companies are NOT allowed to turn anyone away with pre-existing conditions, what is going to stop people from waiting till they're sick to get health insurance?

Assuming I'm not completely misreading ALL of this, who is the moron who came up with this bright idea? I might not like the health care bill, especially the individual mandate, but I also realize that if you're going to force insurance companies to take patients with pre-existing conditions, you have to force EVERYONE to have health insurance.

Now apparently ALL that is being thrown out.

WTF.