Board to decide bus beheader's fate

[Wormius]

It's embarrassing to read some of these comments about mental health from posters that I otherwise respect. Feels like reading the comment section from the Calgary Sun.

[Cole436]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

According to many posters here, schizophrenia is treatable and not this guys fault, so he should be let out. What about other criminals? Someone who is drunk and decides to drive? Pedophiles? Someone who is really angry? Someone who is depressed? Is it always about state of mind and if so why is anyone ever really guilty?

The guy may have been the greatest guy ever, but his crime was so bad that he should forfeit his right to freedom.

Jails are filled with people who cannot control their temper - are they not deserving of the same medical help?

Trust me, I completely understand the point some of you are making, I just think the path of letting someone out simply because there is treatment is not reasonable. The punishment should fit the crime.

I'm not going to let this be ignored. Everything you mentioned is a choice. Drunk driving, choice. Pedophiles attacking children, choice. Someone who acts in anger, choice.

Which comes to the last point you mentioned: Depression. Depression, at least clinical depression, is not a choice. It is a mental illness, just as Schizophrenia is. These cannot be compared to criminal choices.

There was no crime committed in this case. To have crime be committed by definition of law, there has to be a mens rea and an actus rea. In laymen's terms, mens rea is the certainty that there was a guilty criminal intent in the action, and actus rea is that there was a criminal act committed.

There was no mens rea in this case. Vince Li had no guilty intent, as he had no control over his mind or the situation. He was suffering from severe delusions which made him act in a way which was beyond irrational. Therefore, in the eyes of the law he did not commit a criminal offence.

That is why this is different from every example you posted. There is obvious mens rea with a drunk driver (even if he was blizted and couldn't remember the act. It was his choice to get that drunk), a rageoholic, or a pedophile.

Vince Li was a very sick man who damaged a lot of peoples lives and brutally killed another human being. And he is not responsible for his actions. It's not an answer people want to hear, and it's the truth.

[Daradon]

Yeah, I think way too many people get caught in the eye for an eye theory of justice. One, that's not how a good justice system works in the first place, and two, this is obviously an exceptional case.

Most of the points I would make have already been made here so I won't go too deep into it. I will say it is a horrible case all around and while the victim and the family have suffered the most, Li has obviously suffered a lot as well.

I will say though, I am not on board with unescorted trips. I do not believe this man owes anything to society, or has more justice to fulfill. But I do think for his safety and the communities he's in, he needs to be supervised all the time. There may come a day when he doesn't want to take his medication again. Sure it doesn't seem likely now, but he is sure to get depressed, if he isn't already. Depressed people often lapse into periods of apathy and not caring about themselves. In this case, him not caring for himself would be bad for everyone around him. Even if that never happens, he could still forget one day, or be unable to take it for some reason, who knows. While this is something you can treat, it's never something you can truly cure. He needs supervision.

[Devils'Advocate]

I too am pretty disgusted with the comments here.

When we have the Bell Mental Health Awareness Day, everyone is oh so sympathetic to the issue and say we should care for those who suffer from mental illness. Then we come to a case where the doctors conclude that the man suffered from a mental illness, had a psychotic break to disastrous results, the doctors have treated him and those same doctors consider him to no longer be a threat... and all that compassion is tossed out the window.

Someone said "their crimes are so heinous, that there is no single reason that they should walk the street again". Thing is... there was no crime. If there was a crime, he would be a criminal and would have gone to prison. This was an unfortunate circumstance where a disease in person A killed innocent person B. And KILLING someone because they are SICK?!? That belongs in the "I don't want to live on this planet anymore" thread. That is just shameful.

-=-=-=-
BTW - someone mentioned a drunk driver. If someone was drunk and ran over a child, killing them, we do not kill the driver. There is no capital punishment for vehicular manslaughter. Nor do we lock them up for life with no possibility of parole. The laws of the country take into consideration that there was no formed intent to kill. Of course it is possible, some may even say probable, that the driver could return to his alcoholic habits after being released from jail. But that is a risk as a society that we take. We give people a chance to rebuild their lives and become productive members of society.

In this case, people have more compassion for the drunk driver than they do for a man WHO MADE NO CHOICE WHATSOEVER. I think, like Dion, I too should just drop out of the discussion.... this is giving me a headache....

[irrevocable]

There's a big difference between waking up depressed, feeling a dark cloud swirling 'round you.. choking you--and what this man did. Yep, he's sick. He also butchered a man in front of a bunch of ppl. As a citizen I would not want him as a roommate, a co-worker, or even a customer. Stay the hell away from the rest of us. Sorry you're sick man, but stay the #### away.

I don't think anybody here is mocking mental illness. We just realize that when you cut someone up and eat them.. you need to be away from the rest of us. He can deal with that fact for the rest of his life--behind a locked institution's doors.

Oh, and Devil's Ad: I don't care if the law says there was no crime. I'm a reasonable person, a working man, and a tax payer. I don't want him around me... and I'm not alone. Heh.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by T@T

Killers are wired differently

That's the thing, he doesn't have that component. He was asking people to kill him as soon as his episode ended and he was filled with remorse. It's a different animal than someone who can kill without regret, and thus the different treatment in the eyes of the court.

Why waste our time and money locking a guy up who is highly unlikely to reoffend? Much more dangerous people are released all the time.

How he lives with his remorse is his problem now. It is sad, and like fotze said, he was dealt a horrible brain card. We need ways to identify and treat these p people BEFORE they have an episode where someone winds up hurt or dead.

[Russic]

Originally Posted by Cole436

I'm not going to let this be ignored. Everything you mentioned is a choice. Drunk driving, choice. Pedophiles attacking children, choice. Someone who acts in anger, choice.

Which comes to the last point you mentioned: Depression. Depression, at least clinical depression, is not a choice. It is a mental illness, just as Schizophrenia is. These cannot be compared to criminal choices.
...

Further to your point, there's no pill that keeps people from driving drunk, molesting a child, or getting drunk and beating up their kid. There is however a pill that deals with Li's specific problem. I realize to say the solution boils down to a pill is a gross oversimplification, I'm just merely using it for this argument.

[Erick Estrada]

Didn't the guy eat some of the victim in addition to beheading him? I don't pretend to know how treatable some mental disorders are but if he snapped once how can anyone be sure he won't snap again if conditions trigger it? Who would want Li as their neighbor knowing what's he's capable of?

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by pylon

I am very aware of mental illness.

You may be "aware" of it but between this thread and your posts in other threads regarding mental illness it's pretty clear you have zero understanding of it.

[Locke]

Alright, jokes aside, come on people get serious.

This man will always have a shadow of doubt surrounding him and the fact of the matter is that, however unlikely it may be, he could start eating faces at any moment.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by Locke

Why not?

Someone needs to do the accounting stuff

[habernac]

he should never be allowed out unescorted. My great uncle was schizophrenic. He was never stable, he was on meds for years but quit because he didn't like the way they made him feel. There's no guarantee that this man will stay on them forever, either.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by rubecube

You may be "aware" of it but between this thread and your posts in other threads regarding mental illness it's pretty clear you have zero understanding of it.

I fully understand that this guy didn't intend to do what he did. My whole point is I don't care that he didn't.

To coin a phrase from one of my favorite films, and a mantra I have always somewhat lived my life by: "The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few, or the one."

Yeah, yeah, I just quoted Spock. But however you look at it. Society is far better served, locking away Vincent Li for life, than it is to coddle him, feel sorry for him, and pray he doesn't forget to take his pill and start eating babies one day.

Do I think all Schizophrenics should be locked away for life? Of course not. Do I think Schizophrenics that have proven and demonstrated to be cannibalistic murder machines should be locked away for life? Yes. One mans suffering isn't worth putting the public at a significant risk.

The family of the victim in this case is also being victimized by allowing Vincent Li to walk as a free man. Where is all the Vincent Li sympathizers sympathy for them? The family is horrified this man is being released on unsupervised day passes. Should they be forced to suffer because they don't have an "Elite interwebz PHD understanding" of mental illness like everyone that wants to hug Vincent, and cover him in sloppy wet kisses does?

As revolting as some of you find people like me, that don't sympathize with Li, I am equally revolted that you think Vincent Li's rights, trump that of the family he destroyed, and bus load of people he terrorized. I guarantee you no one person there that day, would be championing for Li's release.

Would any one of you, stand in front of Tim McLeans mother, and tell them Vincent Li is a good man?

[MarchHare]

Do I think all Schizophrenics should be locked away for life? Of course not. Do I think Schizophrenics that have proven and demonstrated to be cannibalistic murder machines should be locked away for life? Yes. One mans suffering isn't worth putting the public at a significant risk.

The mental health professionals treating Li and even his Crown Prosecutor have stated that these unescorted trips do not put the public at risk. What unique knowledge do you possess that enables you to have a more accurate risk assessment than the experts who are working closely on this case?

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by habernac

he should never be allowed out unescorted. My great uncle was schizophrenic. He was never stable, he was on meds for years but quit because he didn't like the way they made him feel. There's no guarantee that this man will stay on them forever, either.

That's the thing. He could quit the medication and be completely fine for days, weeks, or years and then one day......bang. There are no do-overs in life as everyone gets one kick at the can and your actions can never be wiped away or forgotten. This man made sure that one person never gets to fulfill their life and has left another group of people scarred for the rest of their lives. Nobody can go back and change that but it's IMO society's responsibility to ensure he never, ever is able to repeat such acts and unfortunately there's only one way to do that and that's to confine him and keep him under a watchful eye for the remainder of his life.

Vince Le is not fit for society and no matter what bleeding hearts think you can't fix what's broken and Le made a decision (consciously or not) that altered the lives of many and it should also alter his as well for the remainder of his life. No do-over for the victim means he forfeited his opportunity to do-over his life.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by pylon

Would any one of you, stand in front of Tim McLeans mother, and tell them Vincent Li is a good man?

I don't know whether he's a good man or not, but what he did has nothing to do with that.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

That's the thing. He could quit the medication and be completely fine for days, weeks, or years and then one day......bang. There are no do-overs in life as everyone gets one kick at the can and your actions can never be wiped away or forgotten. This man made sure that one person never gets to fulfill their life and has left another group of people scarred for the rest of their lives. Nobody can go back and change that but it's IMO society's responsibility to ensure he never, ever is able to repeat such acts and unfortunately there's only one way to do that and that's to confine him and keep him under a watchful eye for the remainder of his life.

Vince Le is not fit for society and no matter what bleeding hearts think you can't fix what's broken and Le made a decision (consciously or not) that altered the lives of many and it should also alter his as well for the remainder of his life. No do-over for the victim means he forfeited his opportunity to do-over his life.

I'm not trying to come off as a bleeding heart, but I'll trust whatever the professionals decide.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

The mental health professionals treating Li and even his Crown Prosecutor have stated that these unescorted trips do not put the public at risk. What unique knowledge do you possess that enables you to have a more accurate risk assessment than the experts who are working closely on this case?

OK, fine then.

If they are so comfortable this guy will keep taking his pills than EVERY single person that signs off on Li, not being a risk to the public, should be responsible and accountable for ANYTHING he does after his release.

If Vincent Li kills again, every single one of them should be tried for and convicted of murder.

Think they would sign off on his release with that caveat attached?

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

The mental health professionals treating Li and even his Crown Prosecutor have stated that these unescorted trips do not put the public at risk. What unique knowledge do you possess that enables you to have a more accurate risk assessment than the experts who are working closely on this case?

Scientists can't agree on global warming which at least has measurable trends yet we can count on doctors to be completely sure a schizophrenic cannibal will never, ever relapse? Sorry I don't buy that at all. It's a chronic issue and there's a difference between schizophrenics in that most do not injure or kill people. The ones that do should be treated differently.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

That's the thing. He could quit the medication and be completely fine for days, weeks, or years and then one day......bang.

He's not being released to live on his own as a regular member of society. He is still required to stay at the mental health facility under supervision by professionals who ensure he keeps taking his medication. Your hypothetical scenario of Li choosing to quit his medication isn't a possible reality.