Landover Baptist Pastor Preaches To Atheists

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by photon

Maybe we're all a big computer simulation?

You put a smiley there, but that is a great point photon! Antfarm, chemsitry experiment, dream? We don't have the mental ability to comprehend anything but our own perspective. The human mind is so very powerful, but man is it dumb too!

[photon]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

Of course I can't speak for 85's grandmother, but I believe faith (even if it's in something false) is capabale of physiological results. Even Doctors will tell you that positive thinking is key to overcoming something nasty medically. So if a person believes God will help them....it may actually help them...regardless if a God did it or not. Interesting dynamic actually.

For sure, it would be an aspect of the placebo effect I would imagine.

[flames85]

Originally Posted by driveway

I think that what you are thinking was a 'miracle' is almost certainly in fact another shining example of 'the power of positive thinking'. Your grandmother is spiritual, she believes in her God, she believes that prayer to her God will be answered, this belief leads to her physiological improvement.

This is also known as the 'Placebo effect' - the litle understood phenomenon where people who suffer from real phisiological disorders improve when given a pill they believe will help them - even if the pill contains no actual medicine.

i really don't think that was the case here. i don't think she could just think/hope to get better that would make her better. especially when doctors had already written her off.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

You put a smiley there, but that is a great point photon! Antfarm, chemsitry experiment, dream? We don't have the mental ability to comprehend anything but our own perspective. The human mind is so very powerful, but man is it dumb too!

True, though science is so much more powerful than the mind. Science is a way of knowing things that the mind cannot know.

Quantum theory is a perfect example. Great theory, most successful theory ever, no one understands it.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by driveway

I think that what you are thinking was a 'miracle' is almost certainly in fact another shining example of 'the power of positive thinking'. Your grandmother is spiritual, she believes in her God, she believes that prayer to her God will be answered, this belief leads to her physiological improvement.

This is also known as the 'Placebo effect' - the litle understood phenomenon where people who suffer from real phisiological disorders improve when given a pill they believe will help them - even if the pill contains no actual medicine.

Agreed, I alluded to that earlier. This is why I think that people should do whatever works best for them. Certainly organized religion has had its issues throughout history and there will always be aspects and elements of it or derived from it that have negative affects on humanity, but those should be dealt with seperately and if 'being a good Christian' or a 'good Muslim' lead folks to a better life I'm all for it. I know there are folks here that totally disagree with that and would like nothing more than to see an atheistic world.

[Hemi-Cuda]

Originally Posted by flames85

My grandmother is a very spiritual woman, honest truth is her only cure was prayer. Like i said they told her she would not live. That is a miracle, you even solidify that by stating the same that your grandmother wouldn't have survived. Same thing the doctors said about my grandma. Thats why i think its a miracle.

but have you looked at why her cancer went into remission? did you ask her doctors why her fortunes suddenly changed? if you didn't or they had no answers then i could see why you might think it's a miracle, but what happens in 10 years or so when doctors do have the answer, when a doctor can tell you exactly why her cancer disappeared and prove scientifically that there was no divine intervention? would that shake your belief at all that there was a miracle involved?

the way i see it, religious people look at something they don't understand and automatically attribute it to a higher power. non-religious folk look at something they don't understand and are either ok with that with the knowledge that humanity just doesn't have all the answers right now, or they're of the more scientific mind and are determined to find the answers, which eventually they will

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by photon

True, though science is so much more powerful than the mind. Science is a way of knowing things that the mind cannot know.

Quantum theory is a perfect example. Great theory, most successful theory ever, no one understands it.

Exactly. Is there a point where science stops being useful (exponential discoveries, not lateral ones) because we simply can't understand what it tells us? Or will we continue to 'get smarter' through the generations and use science to get more and more useful answers?

All of this stuff can become so mind boggling.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by flames85

My grandmother is a very spiritual woman, honest truth is her only cure was prayer. Like i said they told her she would not live. That is a miracle, you even solidify that by stating the same that your grandmother wouldn't have survived. Same thing the doctors said about my grandma. Thats why i think its a miracle.

The brain can be a powerful tool, someday we humans may learn how to use it to it's full potental.

[photon]

Originally Posted by flames85

i really don't think that was the case here. i don't think she could just think/hope to get better that would make her better. especially when doctors had already written her off.

As I mentioned already, cancer has been known to go through spontaneous remission, where the cancer goes away by itself (rather the body defeats it itself). It's not common, but it does happen.

Doctors are good, but they don't know everything. Just because a doctor doesn't think a person will make it doesn't mean that's a 100% scientific fact.

I'm not saying that God didn't heal her, but that there is an alternative explanation means it isn't evidence. Now if God healed a significant number of cancer patients that were prayed for (well above those that weren't prayed for), that would be evidence. Unfortunately studies to that effect have been done with no results.

[Schultzie]

Originally Posted by flames85

My grandmother is a very spiritual woman, honest truth is her only cure was prayer. Like i said they told her she would not live. That is a miracle, you even solidify that by stating the same that your grandmother wouldn't have survived. Same thing the doctors said about my grandma. Thats why i think its a miracle.

I just wanted to start by saying how happy I am that your grandmother is still with you. Many of my family members have had cancer and passed away from it, so I know where you're coming from.

I do believe that it is more a miracle of modern science than it was a divine miracle, though (like RougeUnderoos stated earlier).

In fact, they did a double blind study and found that prayers did not help heart bypass patients, and in some cases, even made their conditions worse. If you'd like to read up on it, here's a link:

http://www.livescience.com/strangene...30_prayer.html

[photon]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

Exactly. Is there a point where science stops being useful (exponential discoveries, not lateral ones) because we simply can't understand what it tells us? Or will we continue to 'get smarter' through the generations and use science to get more and more useful answers?

All of this stuff can become so mind boggling.

Lol awesome question! Mabybe once we invent AI, it will do the understanding for us, inventing new AI's that are better than itself while it exceeds our ability to ever understand. We would become its pets.

Crap there's a short story like this..

Oh yeah, The Last Question by Asimov!

http://www.multivax.com/last_question.html

[driveway]

Originally Posted by flames85

i really don't think that was the case here. i don't think she could just think/hope to get better that would make her better. especially when doctors had already written her off.

It actually happens with some frequency (I myself have a Great Grandfather who, at a young age came down with a mysterious affliction and was given 48 hours, or less to live. He improved and went on to live to 100)

Also, it may interest you to know that studies seem to indicate that if people who are prayed for during medical procedures actually have more complications than those who are not prayed for, regardless of whether those people are aware of the prayer or not.

I admit, this does seem to go against my previous argument regarding the power of positive thinking - but it does speak against the potential power of a Deity.

[flames85]

ultimately a person can only believe what they want to believe. i must say i have more respect for alot of you's that speak with an open mind, than some people i know that think your going to hell if you swear.

[AC]

I never understood how people can use near-death experiences as a 'proof' of god's existence.

Isn't that insulting to those who don't survive? He must not have cared enough to save them?

So god cared enough about your grandmother to save her apparently, yet he sure must hate starving orphans in Africa, or any of the hundreds of thousands who do die from cancer.

[SarichFan]

People can believe in whatever they want.. it's when it's sold as a product that I have a problem.

[Schultzie]

Originally Posted by SarichFan

People can believe in whatever they want.. it's when it's sold as a product that I have a problem.

You must hate this then.

http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news0...salvation.html

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by flames85

Proof that God exists:

- Nature is incredible. Take time to look at anything closely, and you'll have a hard time explaining it as coincidence.

- Historical events that seem to be impossible without supernatural intervention (defeat of the Spanish Armada, rise and fall of kingdoms, etc.)

- Miracles (I've witnessed a few first hand and there are many in the Bible. I'm sure you all have stories about miracles?)

- Prophecy and fulfillment of prophecy (there were over 300 prophecies of Jesus' life, and all came true)

- Humans have an innate desire to worship something (God, money, themselves, etc.), and it seems unlikely that they could invent that.

- Humans seem to have a natural understanding of right and wrong (whether we choose to ignore it is a different story).

- If you look at Jesus' life, you could conclude he was either A) insane, B) a liar, or C) who He claimed to be. Most people would agree that He gave no indication of the first two.

Earthquakes, Hurricanes, Tornadoes that kill 1000s of people every year. Why does your God kill all of these people?

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I look at these arguments, does god exist doesn't he exist, is there proof isn't there proof. I've had my own war with the church for personal reasons, but that doesn't mean that I don't believe in god, or worship in my own way.

But the proof of god scientifically or otherwise is irrelevant when it comes to anything. Some of you choose to not believe there's a god. You believe in empirical evidence, and the latest from the scientific journals. Others, believe that god exists. Those beliefs are all of the proof that anyone ever needs.

Frankly, I think its insulting to challenge someone's beliefs and faith based on your value systems and vice versa.

Does god exist, if you don't believe it, and you fashion your belief systems around that, good for you, no amount of poof to the contrary is going to change your minds. If you do believe in the god all mighty, then no scientific evidence is going to convince you otherwise, because you have faith that he exists.

IF and this is a BIG IF...if most theists chose to simply live their life without foisting their choice of God on the masses then I cant see a problem. You know...and I know..and most everyone reading this knows thats not possible. Foisting is part of the package for most.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by flames85

Proof that God exists:


- Prophecy and fulfillment of prophecy (there were over 300 prophecies of Jesus' life, and all came true)

Ok Im willing to play the game with this one...why dont you share with us a few of the prophecies that were fulfilled? With 300 Im sure you can give us oh say...5?

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by flames85

look around you this is all evidence that God exists. how do you explain how we all came to be?

well lets see...your mom and dad got together one night...and perhaps after a few beers they started some heavy petting...that led to intercourse and a sperm and egg joined magically creating...you!

Fun eh?

Or are you talking about Adam and Eve...then the Ark story... where Noah and family magically recreated all of mankind after the water regressed and God had murdered every living thing on the planet?