Man dies after being tasered in Vancouver Airport

Originally Posted by Dion

You seem to think the police are infallible and can do no wrong. To me that's pretty scary. God forbid anyone thinks they might be guilty.

That's the problem here. The vast majority have absolutely NO idea how police are trained especially when it comes to using force. Do you know when police are allowed to use a taser? OC Spray? How about other forms of physical control? Do you know what the different subject categories are? If you don't, either do some research before judging these guys or don't say anything. If after educating yourself, you still think their actions were inappropriate, your opinions would be much better received by us 'blind' police lovers.

I tend to believe that we should be questioning police tactics and training and not the officers themselves.

As we speak the vast majority are thinking, 'I don't need to be an expert to see they just BLAM, tasered some dude giving up'... but spare me that please... I wish it was that simple.

Originally Posted by Ford Prefect

I'll be sure to pass your concerns along to her.

Sounds good!

Originally Posted by Dion

You think they did no wrong - fair enough - I respect that. Then why did you jump on the rest of us for having another opinion?

Heck, I'll say it.... because your opinion in wrong, wrong, wrong .

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Bent Wookie

Because thats what this is about- having a big pair of balls and running right in and cracking skulls.

Was cracking skulls the only other option?

What about physically restraining him, putting the cuffs on and dragging him out of there? Was that out of the question? If so, why?

[metallicat]

I just watched the video for the first time.

The guy is acting deranged. Chairs in the way of the door? WTF? I don't care if you're Polish or Iraqi or Canadian, you don't act that way regardless of the situation. When the police arrive, the man CLEARLY has an object in his hands and is acting aggressive. So they Taser him, and defuse the situation. Unfortunately, the man died and I am willing to bet my entire life that the police did not intentionally kill this man. They weren't acting maliciously, and if you believe that, I am sorry, but nothing I can say will sway your opinion.

I feel bad for his family that he died, but sometimes that happens. I don't blame the police for trying to defuse a hostile situation. If I was at an airport and saw a guy acting the way he was, I would be a little worried about what he might try to do next. Seeing the police arrive and put an end to the madness would be a relief.

I also feel bad for the RCMP officers who are being vilified across the entire world over a situation like this.

[Flames_Gimp]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

What about physically restraining him, putting the cuffs on and dragging him out of there? Was that out of the question? If so, why?

LMAO, not this again.... because its just that easy, just like in the movies? It's easy to subdue a raving lunatic!

[Dion]

For Bent Wookie...

That's the problem here. The vast majority have absolutely NO idea how police are trained especially when it comes to using force. Do you know when police are allowed to use a taser? OC Spray? How about other forms of physical control? Do you know what the different subject categories are? If you don't, either do some research before judging these guys or don't say anything. If after educating yourself, you still think their actions were inappropriate, your opinions would be much better received by us 'blind' police lovers.

I tend to believe that we should be questioning police tactics and training and not the officers themselves.

As we speak the vast majority are thinking, 'I don't need to be an expert to see they just BLAM, tasered some dude giving up'... but spare me that please... I wish it was that simple.

If my opinions offend you then don't read them.

I've never once claimed to be an expert on this subject either. Yet i'm supposed to shut up when someone tells me i have it burned in my brains that the cops were wrong and that's it. My mistake was responding in kind to GP's comments.

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Was cracking skulls the only other option?

What about physically restraining him, putting the cuffs on and dragging him out of there? Was that out of the question? If so, why?

You talk like it's so easy. 'Hey you, first I will restrain you, then I will put some cuffs on, then I will drag you out. Sound Ok? Right then, lets get to it'.


No, physical restraint is a use of force option that was available. They elected, based on the what THEY saw to use a taser. It is up to THEM to ARTICULATE its use. If they can, they have done nothing wrong. Thus, if someone has an issue about its use, their issues is more likely that of training.

To answer your question though, there could be several factors why it may not have been used, and I am merely speculating:
1) As I stated in some other taser thread (god only knows which one), some officers I would think, are more confident in certain tools- whether that's ninja abilities, taser or OC.
2) Based on what I saw in the video, I would say that this guy was exhibiting signs of excited delerium and what they didn't want, in an airport, was a huge hullabullo risking injury to both subject and officer (yes, I see the irony). Maybe they thought it was the safest form of control given the circumstances.
3) Four cops all with guns rolling around with a clearly emotionally disturbed person, maybe isn't the best idea.

Originally Posted by Dion

For Bent Wookie...



If my opinions offend you then don't read them.

I've never once claimed to be an expert on this subject either. Yet i'm supposed to shut up when someone tells me i have it burned in my brains that the cops were wrong and that's it. My mistake was responding in kind to GP's comments.

Does this mean you are not gonna attempt to learn more? It might change your perspective.

Chill out, I am far from offended.

[OracleOfCalgary]

Has there been a coroners report yet? Having just watched the whole eyewitness video, I'm not convinced that it was necessarily the taiser that killed this guy. When they go on to restraing the guy, he continues to struggle with them for several minutes.

Secondly, it is hard to say what sort of advance information the RCMP had, e.g. the 911 calls may have been exaggerated. The guy making the video seemed to be exaggerating himself.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Bent Wookie

Does this mean you are not gonna attempt to learn more? It might change your perspective.

Chill out, I am far from offended.

I'm always open to new ideas. Problem is haven't been convinced yet they did nothing wrong.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Bent Wookie

Heck, I'll say it.... because your opinion in wrong, wrong, wrong .

Whatever!

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Bent Wookie

No, physical restraint is a use of force option that was available. They elected, based on the what THEY saw to use a taser. It is up to THEM to ARTICULATE its use. If they can, they have done nothing wrong. Thus, if someone has an issue about its use, their issues is more likely that of training.

And based on what I saw, they elected wrong. The guy is dead after all, and you yourself admitted that they might have elected wrong on watching the guy die without doing anything about it. Maybe it's an issue of training, maybe not. I don't know. It's pretty clear something went wrong here though.

As for the whole "if you aren't an expert, you should keep your mouth shut" idea, no thanks.

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

And based on what I saw, they elected wrong. The guy is dead after all, and you yourself admitted that they might have elected wrong on watching the guy die without doing anything about it. Maybe it's an issue of training, maybe not. I don't know. It's pretty clear something went wrong here though.

As for the whole "if you aren't an expert, you should keep your mouth shut" idea, no thanks.

Ya didn't think that would go over big with you rouge.

My point was, it doesn't matter what YOU saw because a) you weren't there and b) have no clue when police can use a certain level of force. So, for you to say that you thought the level of force was excessive, considering you have no clue what level of force they are permitted to use, really doesn't lend itself well towards your argument. That's what I have been saying all along and urging people to go read up on it. It's like me saying I think Iggy would be better off playing defense without ever playing or knowing anything about hockey.

I admitted that I have some questions about his lack of medical attention after displaying clear signs of something above and beyond mere anger. I am not condemning them (as many seem to have done) because there is just too much I don't know.

I think the video was quite clear that the taser didn't CAUSE his death- he seems alive well after the cycle ended.

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by oilers_fan

I just watched the video for the first time.

The guy is acting deranged. Chairs in the way of the door? WTF? I don't care if you're Polish or Iraqi or Canadian, you don't act that way regardless of the situation. When the police arrive, the man CLEARLY has an object in his hands and is acting aggressive. So they Taser him, and defuse the situation. Unfortunately, the man died and I am willing to bet my entire life that the police did not intentionally kill this man. They weren't acting maliciously, and if you believe that, I am sorry, but nothing I can say will sway your opinion.

I feel bad for his family that he died, but sometimes that happens. I don't blame the police for trying to defuse a hostile situation. If I was at an airport and saw a guy acting the way he was, I would be a little worried about what he might try to do next. Seeing the police arrive and put an end to the madness would be a relief.

I also feel bad for the RCMP officers who are being vilified across the entire world over a situation like this.

QTF

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Bent Wookie

My point was, it doesn't matter what YOU saw because a) you weren't there and b) have no clue when police can use a certain level of force.

True, I wasn't there, but neither were the members of the jury in any criminal trial that goes on in this country. We don't ignore their opinion with the old "you weren't there" defense.

As for the "it doesn't matter what you saw" thing, that sounds like a pretty raw deal.

And I'm a regular, sighted Canadian citizen, so while it's well established that I'm no expert on the matter, I don't agree with the sentiment that I have "no clue" when police can use a certain level of force.

When a guy ends up dead on the floor of the airport because he had a temper tantrum I don't think I'm out of line if I question the level of force that was used.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

True, I wasn't there, but neither were the members of the jury in any criminal trial that goes on in this country. We don't ignore their opinion with the old "you weren't there" defense.

You forgot to add all the people involved in investigating this case. They weren't there either.

[Regorium]

At an international airport, how come there is not ONE Polish speaking interpreter in 6 hours that he was stuck at baggage claim?! That is absolutely ridiculous. Embarassing for the Vancouver Airport first of all.

Everyone seems to jump on the cause of death from the Taser. Why is that? A taser was used != a taser killed the guy. To be honest, it looked more like the dogpile on top of the guy killed him. I don't know much about tasers and their effects, but if what other posters saying about it having zero after effects are true, it might have been him being caught in an awkward position in the dogpile - so he was trying to struggle to get out from it, and obviously the RCMP wouldn't let him get out. Why is the taser so maligned? Would it have been any different if the 4 cops punched him in the face, or broke his arm when performing an submission manuveur, or used batons? They NEED to have some kind of lee-way in situations like this. They can't be second guessing their choices when in a lot of cases, a decision can be the difference between life and death of not only themselves, but other innocent people.

WTF with the media having sensationalist headlines like "Man killed by taser surrendering when hit". How can they just jump to not one but TWO conclusions in one headline?

I personally agree with the police in this case. He made aggressive movements towards other passengers, and he needed to be dealt with. However, I still think the blame should be placed on the airport for not being able to defuse the situation before it escalated.

[jonesy]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

True, I wasn't there, but neither were the members of the jury in any criminal trial that goes on in this country. We don't ignore their opinion with the old "you weren't there" defense.

As for the "it doesn't matter what you saw" thing, that sounds like a pretty raw deal.

And I'm a regular, sighted Canadian citizen, so while it's well established that I'm no expert on the matter, I don't agree with the sentiment that I have "no clue" when police can use a certain level of force.

When a guy ends up dead on the floor of the airport because he had a temper tantrum I don't think I'm out of line if I question the level of force that was used.

Most of my views are not the same as Rouge, but I agree with him in this case. I have travelled a lot, and the authorities at Vancouver airport always seem the most uptight, rude and militant. I have seen them hassle lots of people, scaring them and being rude. I am embarrased when I see it. I know they aren't all RCMP, but it seems the 'coporate culture' at YVR is paramilitary. I can't believe the officers were thinking about public or national safety. I think they were simply being bullies.

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by Bent Wookie

have no clue when police can use a certain level of force. So, for you to say that you thought the level of force was excessive, considering you have no clue what level of force they are permitted to use, really doesn't lend itself well towards your argument. That's what I have been saying all along and urging people to go read up on it.

just because its an authorized level of force doesn't mean its the best course of action. i think we need to separate questioning how the officers acted in accordance to the force model, authorization, etc, etc from how appropriate that force model is.

in my opinion, tasers are used too often and too quickly.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/w...re/7096456.stm