United 93, opening old wounds and exposing some truth?

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Azure

No that is not a conspiracy. To most people its called reality. Everyone knows that in a capitalist system, the government goes as the money goes. Why do you think the US government won't pass an immigraton bill barring illegal Mexicans from staying in the US?

But a conspiracy is an all together different item. One where if you believe if you have no concept of reality and no matter how well it is explained to you(I looked up Cowperson's posts, you should too) you still won't believe reality, as in what people saw. That is why there is no point in starting this arguement all over again.

To some people a simple arguement as Islamic fanatics taking over a plane and flying it into the WTC isn't good enough. There HAS to be more to the arguement. That is why they search for a conspiracy theory.

Of course, hatred for the US or even Bush has "nothing" to do with it, right?

Well if the Bush administration conspired with big business to allow more illegal aliens into the USA by being lax at their southern border in order to lower wages and thus put unions and middle class americans at a disadvantage, I'd call this a conspiracy.

A lot of the disputes on this topic have to do with defining what a conspiracy is. The people doing the conspiring have made the word 'conspiracy' a dirty word and love to throw it around as only used by wackos.

Like most people I don't buy that Bush conspired with terrorists to pull off 9/11 but they MAY have looked the other way when intelligence warned them of some type of attack [not realizing how devastating it would be] and decided to use it for their own purposes.

[Azure]

Well if the Bush administration conspired with big business to allow more illegal aliens into the USA by being lax at their southern border in order to lower wages and thus put unions and middle class americans at a disadvantage, I'd call this a conspiracy.

Thats not what I said. The Bush administration is not pushing through the immigration bill, dipite many American's approving it, simply because those illegal aliens provide cheap labour and more money for corporate America. Its not a conspiracy theory, just something that has gone on in the government for a long time.

A lot of the disputes on this topic have to do with defining what a conspiracy is. The people doing the conspiring have made the word 'conspiracy' a dirty word and love to throw it around as only used by wackos.

Well this is a topic originally started based on the belief that 9/11 was a conspiracy.

Like most people I don't buy that Bush conspired with terrorists to pull off 9/11 but they MAY have looked the other way when intelligence warned them of some type of attack [not realizing how devastating it would be] and decided to use it for their own purposes.

No problem with that. But for how long was Bush President before the attacks happened? Not very long. Therefore one could say that Clinton also ignored most of the intelligence he recieved, also doing nothing about Al-Queda. There were numerous terrorist attacks by Al-Queda during Clinton's reign. He did nothing to "properly" solve them.

I'm not saying Bush has properly solved them either. But most people forget that the US hasn't been attacked since 9/11, and since the wars in both Afghanistan and Iraq. The reasons for that can be numerous.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Azure

Thats not what I said. The Bush administration is not pushing through the immigration bill, dipite many American's approving it, simply because those illegal aliens provide cheap labour and more money for corporate America. Its not a conspiracy theory, just something that has gone on in the government for a long time.

It's time that "something that has gone on in the government for a long time" stopped. Illegal aliens kind of says that what they are doing is 'illegal' doesn't it and since this, as you admit, is an agreement between two parties [to encourage this crime], the government and corporate America, then this my friend is a conspiracy.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Hesla

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,195702,00.html

Good news.... should solve this thing... or will conspircy theorists proclaim that these videos are doctored...

Anyways,.... sorry to reopen a tired argument.

Well, not really.

I'm not a believer of the missile theory, however, that video only shows a blurry streak that can be anything really. Even the Fox reported said that the video is not conclusive.

If someone believes in the missile theory, I don't see how this video can be used to debunk it.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

If someone believes in the missile theory, I don't see how this video can be used to debunk it.

If they do...they are nothing short of insane.

The evidence, the eyewitnesses, the wreckage and debris left over....EVERYTHING indicates it was an airplane...because it was.



http://www.abovetopsecret.com/pages/..._evidence.html

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by transplant99

If they do...they are nothing short of insane.

The evidence, the eyewitnesses, the wreckage and debris left over....EVERYTHING indicates it was an airplane...because it was.

That and the fact that there were human beings on that airplane who perished--and who are survived by family members, etc. In order to explain that away, conspiracy theories have to get pretty darn intricate and complicated. We're orders of magnitude beyond "second gunman on the grassy knoll" here.

I distrust government as much as anyone. But I believe they went to the moon, I believe Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone, and I also believe that 9/11 happened approximately the way we all experienced it. Did Bush "look the other way"? Maybe--but I find it pretty unlikely. I can't stand Bush, but what Vulcan is describing is the action of a person both incompetent and evil. In my opinion, Bush is one, but not the other.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

That and the fact that there were human beings on that airplane who perished--and who are survived by family members, etc. In order to explain that away, conspiracy theories have to get pretty darn intricate and complicated. We're orders of magnitude beyond "second gunman on the grassy knoll" here.

I distrust government as much as anyone. But I believe they went to the moon, I believe Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone, and I also believe that 9/11 happened approximately the way we all experienced it. Did Bush "look the other way"? Maybe--but I find it pretty unlikely. I can't stand Bush, but what Vulcan is describing is the action of a person both incompetent and evil. In my opinion, Bush is one, but not the other.

When the government hides behind a veil of secrecy such as they did in the Kennedy assassination and still do in the Martin Luther King assassination, they feed the conspirator theorists agenda. If the only good thing that comes out of this is a more open government, I'll be happy. The days should be over when the governments treat the voters like mushrooms.

The more information that comes out about 9/11 and Iraq shows the Bush administration to be incompetent or liars.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

It's time that "something that has gone on in the government for a long time" stopped. Illegal aliens kind of says that what they are doing is 'illegal' doesn't it and since this, as you admit, is an agreement between two parties [to encourage this crime], the government and corporate America, then this my friend is a conspiracy.

Yes it should stop. But will it? I doubt it.

[rubecube]

Kind of OT, but did Lanny get himself banned or just suspended? As far as conspiracies for 9/11 go...I'm not too sure. I had a guy once tell me it was planned by the U.S. government as an excuse to declare martial law. Since that never happened I think he's a crazy person.

However, I don't believe we've been told everything, conspiracy or not.

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Kind of OT, but did Lanny get himself banned or just suspended? As far as conspiracies for 9/11 go...I'm not too sure. I had a guy once tell me it was planned by the U.S. government as an excuse to declare martial law. Since that never happened I think he's a crazy person.

However, I don't believe we've been told everything, conspiracy or not.

May be a misunderstanding...but did you have to wait to think your friend was crazy?

Governments never tell us everything. Hence "top secret" stuff. Eventually it does get out. Just have to wait a few decades.

[HOZ]

Pentagon releases footage of flight 77 hitting the Pentagon.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/nation...tagon-911.html

U.S. military officials released never-before seen videotape Tuesday of American Airlines Flight 77 slamming into the Pentagon on Sept. 11, 2001.

*******

The videotape was released in response to a Freedom of Information lawsuit filed against the U.S. Department of Defence in February by Judicial Watch, a conservative government watchdog.
The group wanted the video aired to counter various conspiracy theories about the attack, including claims that the plane was shot down by a missile.

CNN Coverage and slap down of comspiracy theorists
http://edition.cnn.com/video/player/...gon.video.affl

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by TheCommodoreAfro

Here's how the psychology of the "conspiracy theorist" works - lack of trust in the government and media. Hence the "conspiracies" (what one side of the fence calls them) or the "quest for clarity and openess" (those who tend to question stories that don't always add up, such as why was there no evidence of a plane crash with United 93). I think if you want to satisfy both you hold an official inquiry right away and make all of the evidence public to satsiate both sides. That's what didn't happen in the wake of 9-11, in contrast to, for example, the Madrid and London bombings.

Seems pretty dull to me. Maybe conspriacy theorists are simply higher maintenance or harder to please. Or maybe (shock) they're onto something!

Not quite.

There are lots of conspiracy theories surrounding London bombings as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumours...ondon_bombings

There are conspiracy theories surrounding Madrid as well.

A BBC story from 2001 I posted above said there were 36,000 conspiracy theories surrounding the death of Princess Diana.

The top ten conspiracy theories circulating among Arabs a few years ago:

http://www.nationalreview.com/commen...0405060835.asp

AIDS Conspiracy theories

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIDS_conspiracy_theories

Jack the Ripper conspiracy theory:

http://www.casebook.org/dissertation...nsorigins.html

SARS conspiracy theories . . . . the Chinese believe Americans are behind it:

http://www.parapundit.com/archives/001292.html

A guy gets suspended in Australian rugby and suggests a conspiracy by higher-ups:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/items/200...4.htm?brisbane

All of the above is why I'm finding the psychology of conspiracy theorists a little more interesting than the actual events.

CNN Coverage and slap down of comspiracy theorists - HOZ

Ah, but Jamie MacIntyre of CNN is part of the corporate elite controlled by government. . . . . . what else would you expect him to say?

He's part of the conspiracy.

Cowperson

[Azure]

Originally Posted by HOZ

Pentagon releases footage of flight 77 hitting the Pentagon.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/nation...tagon-911.html

U.S. military officials released never-before seen videotape Tuesday of American Airlines Flight 77 slamming into the Pentagon on Sept. 11, 2001.

*******

The videotape was released in response to a Freedom of Information lawsuit filed against the U.S. Department of Defence in February by Judicial Watch, a conservative government watchdog.
The group wanted the video aired to counter various conspiracy theories about the attack, including claims that the plane was shot down by a missile.

CNN Coverage and slap down of comspiracy theorists
http://edition.cnn.com/video/player/...gon.video.affl

You do know that people will claim that the video was edited, made up or doctored, right?

[Looger]

Originally Posted by Azure

No that is not a conspiracy. To most people its called reality. Everyone knows that in a capitalist system, the government goes as the money goes. Why do you think the US government won't pass an immigraton bill barring illegal Mexicans from staying in the US?

But a conspiracy is an all together different item. One where if you believe if you have no concept of reality and no matter how well it is explained to you(I looked up Cowperson's posts, you should too) you still won't believe reality, as in what people saw. That is why there is no point in starting this arguement all over again.

well, excuse me for discussing a topic in a discussion forum. i was discussing flight 93 because it's a thread discussing flight 93, but now that you mention it i think it has something to do with the fake lunar landing and bigfoot. yeah...

i didn't want to open the entire 9/11 can of worms, but if you want to, cite the exact discussion you want. sounds to me like you're playing the big man, get to it then.

and agreed, the money is always the most important lead.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Come on guys this is pointless. Especially sinc you're all going down the wrong path anyway, though Looger is getting the closest it isn't bigfoot, it's the Yetti.

Why? Simply because the Yeti likes cold weather of course. Sept 11 was just the first step. To start the US on a path to War. Get them into the middle east.

Then the Yetti uses his connections in Kazakhstan (gnomes mostly) to steal uranium enriching technology and take it (via unicorn of course) to Iran where it will be enriched.

Meanwhile a Fairy (of course under the direction of the yetti) has made North Korean dictatior Kim Jong Il fall in love with her and told him to take a hard line on the US and the NK nuclear program as well.

This may seem a little odd to have two plans running simultaneously, but Fairies and Gnomes are notoriously unreliable, so it's best to have a backup plan when using them. Besides, worst case scenario they both succeed, and they both get paid, don't worry, there's plenty of leprechaun gold to go around.

Anyway all this galavanting around the Middle east and the war on Terror will eventually lead to a nuclear war with one of these two crazy countries (see it makes sense, they're all axis of evil, and one of them has to be next). World get's blown up, dust blots out sky, and boom, Yetti get's to party in the new ice age brought on by the nuclear war.

Geeze, if you guys had bothered to read the Loc Ness Monster's book you'd already know all of this.

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

Come on guys this is pointless. Especially sinc you're all going down the wrong path anyway, though Looger is getting the closest it isn't bigfoot, it's the Yetti.

Why? Simply because the Yeti likes cold weather of course. Sept 11 was just the first step. To start the US on a path to War. Get them into the middle east.

Then the Yetti uses his connections in Kazakhstan (gnomes mostly) to steal uranium enriching technology and take it (via unicorn of course) to Iran where it will be enriched.

Meanwhile a Fairy (of course under the direction of the yetti) has made North Korean dictatior Kim Jong Il fall in love with her and told him to take a hard line on the US and the NK nuclear program as well.

This may seem a little odd to have two plans running simultaneously, but Fairies and Gnomes are notoriously unreliable, so it's best to have a backup plan when using them. Besides, worst case scenario they both succeed, and they both get paid, don't worry, there's plenty of leprechaun gold to go around.

Anyway all this galavanting around the Middle east and the war on Terror will eventually lead to a nuclear war with one of these two crazy countries (see it makes sense, they're all axis of evil, and one of them has to be next). World get's blown up, dust blots out sky, and boom, Yetti get's to party in the new ice age brought on by the nuclear war.

Geeze, if you guys had bothered to read the Loc Ness Monster's book you'd already know all of this.

Better git me one of dem bewks

[TheCommodoreAfro]

Originally Posted by HOZ

May be a misunderstanding...but did you have to wait to think your friend was crazy?

Pot meeting really, really bloody huge steaming giant kettle.

[/quote]Governments never tell us everything. Hence "top secret" stuff. Eventually it does get out. Just have to wait a few decades.[/quote]

That seems fair. So if something did happen to United 93, we won't know until everyone connected with the flight is dead/really really old.

[TheCommodoreAfro]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

Not quite.

There are lots of conspiracy theories surrounding London bombings as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumours...ondon_bombings

There are conspiracy theories surrounding Madrid as well.

A BBC story from 2001 I posted above said there were 36,000 conspiracy theories surrounding the death of Princess Diana.

The top ten conspiracy theories circulating among Arabs a few years ago:

http://www.nationalreview.com/commen...0405060835.asp

AIDS Conspiracy theories

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIDS_conspiracy_theories

Jack the Ripper conspiracy theory:

http://www.casebook.org/dissertation...nsorigins.html

SARS conspiracy theories . . . . the Chinese believe Americans are behind it:

http://www.parapundit.com/archives/001292.html

A guy gets suspended in Australian rugby and suggests a conspiracy by higher-ups:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/items/200...4.htm?brisbane

All of the above is why I'm finding the psychology of conspiracy theorists a little more interesting than the actual events.



Ah, but Jamie MacIntyre of CNN is part of the corporate elite controlled by government. . . . . . what else would you expect him to say?

He's part of the conspiracy.

Cowperson

That's all well and good. The issue of my post is the roots for this, however, is the root cause of mistrust. It seems if anyone disagrees with the story in CNN or what the press secretary to Bush tells them they are "conspiracy theorists".

And in the age of the internet, it's become a hobby of mainstream journalists who are keen to protect the value of their "unbiased" media (even when they clearly play favourites) label just about everything else as a conspiracy theory. After all, it's a pretty easy way to dismiss an argument.

[Bingo]

the biggest problem with conspiracy theories is they by way of nature force people that don't believe in them to explain the coincidence or inexplicable happening of 100 unrelated events happening at the same time.

That's a pretty hard side to be on.

The conspiracy theorist isn't forced to make a direct irrefutable link between airline stock trading and 911 ... they just toss it out there and it's on the guy that believes what happened just happened to prove there isn't a link.

Know how many unlinked events happen every day without any chance of proving they're not linked?

Yikes.

[FlamesAddiction]

According the U.S. Defense Secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, United 93 WAS shot down!

http://www.shoutwire.com/viewstory/1...d_to_Flight_93