[PGT] Flames Lose to Canucks by a lot of goals

[bubbsy]

Originally Posted by GordonBlue

has a player ever fallen off so much after winning a Norris?
it's like Gio threw every last bit of what he had left as a hockey player into one magical season and now has nothing left.

I always respected how solidly consistent he was.

Age is catching up. What made him so good was his level of compete/intensity, winning battles, joining the rush. I think these can take a hit as he ages. Cerebral, strong positioning based defenders, typically age better at this stage of their careers.

That being said, even when he struggles, his effort level is never in question.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Gio's career is basically unique. Undrafted, had to go to Russia, came back, reached new levels in his 30s and won a Norris.

The level of play he reached during his Norris season was itself highly unusual, so it shouldn't be that surprising that when the decline hit - it hit hard.

When any player gets into his mid-30's fans should always be prepared that the end can come fast without warning. There were signs of decline last season especially in the bubble that he was slowing down. Gio has exceeded expectations in the 2nd half of his career and while the will is there the body isn't as capable. I just hope that next season he can still play without being scratched but those days may be coming as these long term deals to players in their 30's usually kill the chances of dignified endings to player careers.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by GordonBlue

has a player ever fallen off so much after winning a Norris?
it's like Gio threw every last bit of what he had left as a hockey player into one magical season and now has nothing left.

I always respected how solidly consistent he was.

How many guys have won a Norris at 35? I am sure Lidstrom did but he was a generational talent.

That was also 2 years ago and he played fine as a top pairing guy last year so is it that shocking that at 37 the decline is rapid?

[Yoho]

Remember thinking this expansion draft would hit the Flames hard for the player we lost?

[-TC-]

Warrener and Krahn openly questioning the room on Fan 960 this AM...

I turned it off after the 4th goal last night, it's been a long time since I've felt compelled to do that.

Something is wrong with this group. I don't think it's the coach or the mgmt, except maybe lack of action or acknowledgement of the issues in the room.

I dunno, but it's gotten really hard to watch.

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by Yoho

Remember thinking this expansion draft would hit the Flames hard for the player we lost?

We just got lucky we don't need to worry about protecting Valimaki

[bubbsy]

Originally Posted by -TC-

Warrener and Krahn openly questioning the room on Fan 960 this AM...

I turned it off after the 4th goal last night, it's been a long time since I've felt compelled to do that.

Something is wrong with this group. I don't think it's the coach or the mgmt, except maybe lack of action or acknowledgement of the issues in the room.

I dunno, but it's gotten really hard to watch.

Watching what's happening to tkachuk this year is troubling as a fan. Is his dip similar to the dip we saw post-doughty incident, or is there more to this? I think it's a fair question they are pondering...

[Calgary4LIfe]

When the Flames are down by a couple of goals in the third period, I would love Ward to shorten his bench and run these 3 lines exclusively:


Gaudreau - Monahan - Lindholm
Tkachuk - Backlund - Mangiapane
Lucic - Bennett - Dube


I 100% see the "Lindholm Experiment" as something to continue with. I have no qualms about it at all, and there could be some significant long-term benefits both from a secondary scoring perspective, as well as making it easier to make roster changes through trades. I think it is a smart thing to do, and Lindholm has been both excellent at times, and a disappointment at times, but this is well-worth continuing.


However, when the Flames are trailing and actually need a goal, please roll your top 9 best players. Having your fourth line doing reps out there when they can't really score, or having them them neuter the other lines when you are behind makes such little sense to me.


Ritchie was good last night. I stand behind that, and he should for sure be playing the next game. He just shouldn't be on the top line. That top RW spot has seen more bargain-bin UFA players than any other player in terms of minutes, and there is something wrong with that in my opinion.


Shorten your bench and go back to 2 solid lines that are proven to work, and hope that the Gaudreau-Monahan-Lindholm line can find a spark when you are down. Other teams do this. You will see Kane and Toews back in the day playing on the same line when they were down in the third at times.

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by bubbsy

Watching what's happening to tkachuk this year is troubling as a fan. Is his dip similar to the dip we saw post-doughty incident, or is there more to this? I think it's a fair question they are pondering...

I won't speculate the reasons why, could be a hundred different things, but there is no question his heart just isn't in it right now

Definitely concerning

[taxbuster]

Originally Posted by KootenayFlamesFan

I'm just guessing here. Markstrom wanted to go back in, Ward thought if we get the next one early it's 4-2 and who knows what can happen, especially if Markstrom shuts the door. After it's 5-1 it's really really over and Rittich is in.

Personally I would have put Rittich in to start the 3rd, but I do see a reason why they put Markstrom back out.

I understand the line of thinking. I just vehemently disagree with it. The Flames sucked for periods 1 and 2 and there was NO indication that was going to change. Even Marky was off - clear from the point when he challenged Horvat. The "regular" Marky wouldn't have done that - he would have let Horvat make the move and tried to prevent the goal...not challenged the puck.

At that point the Flames had absolutely NOTHING to lose by putting in Rittich, and everything to gain, if they're really thinking about giving him a game vs Edmonton. Just poor analysis from the coaching staff to me.

[442scotty]

Maybe it will take back to back embarrassing losses to the Oilers to see some changes made. If that won’t do it I don’t know what will.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by btimbit

I won't speculate the reasons why, could be a hundred different things, but there is no question his heart just isn't in it right now

Definitely concerning

I personally think the timing is good given his contract you want to find these things out about a player sooner than later. There was a time when we may have thought he's future captain material but we are finding out now that he's probably not that guy and actually may be that Ribero, Subban, Avery type of player that teammates tire of over time. When you consider his below average skating I actually think he's the player this team should be actively shopping this season as I don't think he's a player you want to sign for 7 or 8 seasons. I'm not dismissing that he's a very skilled player but his act is getting old and his play has never been great when you need him to be and I would hate to see what he would look like if he ever loses a step.

[-TC-]

Originally Posted by bubbsy

Watching what's happening to tkachuk this year is troubling as a fan. Is his dip similar to the dip we saw post-doughty incident, or is there more to this? I think it's a fair question they are pondering...

Completely fair...

The Tkachuk thing, I think you can connect the dots a bit. He was playing the way he played until the Muzzin thing and the players only meeting, after that, he seems like he's checked out most of the time. We see flashes,, but he's not the same. Maybe it's covid, but I don't think so. It seems like he's from a strong family unit, so I doubt there's a lack of connection or support. It feels more like he's seen the writing on the wall.

That's what concerns me, when ex-players are so openly frustrated and critical and straight up call out the room. I'm inclined to listen to that. And that concerns me, because the Flames don't lack talent, but if the talent can't co-exist and get on the same page, then that's very problematic and not at all an easy fix.

[Robo]

Yeesh glad I turned this one off after the first Canucks goal this team just doesn't have it this year

[Enoch Root]

The only thing that matters in this league is results. And the results aren't where they should be, given the talent on the team. Is that on the players? Yes, they have a job to do, and I don't think anyone could be happy with what we are seeing from them right now.

But it is also on the coaches and management. It is their job to make it work. And, without getting into the details of lineups and systems, there are two fundamental things that are pretty indisputable with the team right now, IMO:

1) the current style of play doesn't suit the personnel (other than Lucic and Mangiapane, who would probably look good in any system)
2) other teams are making adjustments to what the Flames are doing, but the Flames don't appear to be making adjustments of their own. The 3rd period line blender last night illustrates that the couching staff is just guessing at this point (so does the handling of Markstrom - my wife looked up and casually made the correct call and she wasn't even paying attention to the game)

I think those issues are pretty clear - we are seeing them both on a nightly basis. And for me, that alone is enough to say that changes have to be made.

This is speculation, but the players look like they don't believe, IMO.

[Enoch Root]

The other thing I wanted to say is that, along with results, this is an entertainment business. Is anyone entertained by this style of play?

In 2014/15, we all knew they didn't have the horses to win, but they were entertaining as hell. And they competed. It was enjoyable to watch and easy to cheer for them.

Is anyone finding it easy to be a fan this year? I have all but checked out at this point.

I want to see changes simply because, win or lose right now, I am not enjoying it.

[Toonage]

Well, this loss (and cumulatively all of their play this season) has made for fascinating radio this morning.

Lots of truth, lots of exasperation.

I've said this before. Everyone is right. Its the GM, the team composition, the coaching, the personnel.

Its a lot to overcome. They say you build teams from goal out. I suppose for an organization you build from the GM down.

If this goes any higher than that, then this will never change regardless of who is hired for what.

[ForeverFlameFan]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

The other thing I wanted to say is that, along with results, this is an entertainment business. Is anyone entertained by this style of play?

In 2014/15, we all knew they didn't have the horses to win, but they were entertaining as hell. And they competed. It was enjoyable to watch and easy to cheer for them.

Is anyone finding it easy to be a fan this year? I have all but checked out at this point.

I want to see changes simply because, win or lose right now, I am not enjoying it.

You’re not alone. That 14/15 season was by far one of my favorite seasons as a Flames fan because we had zero expectations. And I really do miss Bob Hartley.

[Looch City]

I was excited for this season as a distraction from covid/news. Now I'm actively avoiding watching the games and just check the score every now and then.

What's the point in watching inconsistent play? It's frustrating as hell.

I'm glad no fans have to pay to watch their #### live at the arena.

[CaptainCrunch]

I'm disturbed by the slow starts, with this team. It almost like we have players that are coming out and doing their job and working hard. Markstrom, Lucic, Johnny, for example, and a mass of players that's not, and that group does include MT.

The team has breath taking moments of high energy and sheer dominance, but for the most part, they play slow and non committed. I was watching last night and I was amazed at how easily this team gives up board battles, and how detail poor this team is.

I can blame the coach, and maybe he's the cause, but this isn't unusual with this team or reserved to Ward, we've seen it before.

I really liked the cut of this teams jib at the start of the year, I don't find much right now that's inspiring to book time to watch a whole game.