Blow it up!

[browna]

I come back to where things were at 2 seasons ago when finishing 2nd in the league.

IMO, The talent assembled now is better on paper, with the same core leading the way. The willingness is there, but they are lacking leadership and confidence on the ice to take it to that next level. The good part is that it is fixable.

Being succesful via the Peters game plans implemented, lead to winning and bred that confidence that what the coach planned out, and then made adjusments for in game, worked. Because they had a strong personality behind the bench, he that got the most out of players at key parts in the game and made sure everyone did what they were supposed to do. If he hurt some feelings or pushed some buttons, he wasn't going to apologize for that, as it got the desired result.

Ward, like Gulutzen before him, doesn't have that personality to keep players on edge. For whatever reason, that type of task master is what this team needs to stay on track in game and best utilize their talent. And in game, Ward seems to, like Gulutzen, let the players figure it out on the ice when they get into a lull and by the time he tries something to get out of that lull, it either is too late or just isn't effective.

Whether that's because he doesn't know what adjustments to make or doesn't make severe enough adjustments, or freezes a bit, I don't know, but not having methods that work, leaves the players lacking direction and wondering what to do within the game, and as the results start to go thr wrong way without having that coach to lead them and change things, slowly lose confidence in the coach.

I don't really.any players only meetings under Peters (I could well be wrong) but there's been I think a couple now for Ward (may be wrong, this may the first) and there was a couple under Gulutzen. There is a fine line in coaches roles on motivating players, especially NHL highly paid players; pushing too hard vs not enough, vs timing vs intensity, but I think this team needs a task master coach, and Trelving thought the same when selecting Peters after how he saw the team reacted to a good x and o's coaching Gulutzen, walking all over him.

I see the same signs with Ward, a good guy and coach but not able to get the absolute most out of individual players at key part of the games and keeping the overall team intemsity(bordering on fear) up with the game and game to game.

[cral12]

bit of a fantasy I know, but would love to see NYI let go of Trotz and Flames jump on him...pipedream...

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

* properly? On behalf of the goalie, please don’t try to block that shot with your stick

A clean view of a slap shot from the point? Let it through. Every time

Nope. Coaches teach the d to deflect every shot, because they almost always go away.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

I really hope BT doesn't think the coach is the only/main problem with this team. It would be great if the team could hire a new coach and flip a switch and become a contender but it's not happening. The makeup of the team is a much bigger issue.

[keenan87]

Honestly, I also think this team is missing that veteran older player with swagger who glues everything together. No, I don't think Giordano is that guy because he has never done much in the playoffs.

I am thinking a guy like Pavelski, Getzlaf, J. Williams, Perry ... Someone who can be had for low acquisition cost but will come in demanding respect from the group.

Lucic could have been the guy but his on ice play has been pretty bad. A guy like Getzlaf on this team would make a tremendous difference I think. Frankly, even Perry could have been a good option this past off-season.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by keenan87

Honestly, I also think this team is missing that veteran older player with swagger who glues everything together. No, I don't think Giordano is that guy because he has never done much in the playoffs.

I am thinking a guy like Pavelski, Getzlaf, J. Williams, Perry ... Someone who can be had for low acquisition cost but will come in demanding request from the group.

Lucic could have been the guy but his on ice play has been pretty bad. A guy like Getzlaf on this team would make a tremendous difference I think. Frankly, even Perry could have been a good option this past off-season.

Lucic’s play is going to improve - he’s a slow starter. I don’t know that he’s an in room leader like you want. Backlund should be, but I don’t think he is. Tanev maybe.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by KootenayFlamesFan

My whole thing is you have to ask your self 'Is this a championship caliber team, now or in the near future?'

That's the wrong question. The right question, for this thread is "are they closer to winning a championship if they blow it up?"

Originally Posted by KootenayFlamesFan

What's the point of holding on to the same core hoping that they fluke out and catch lightning in a bottle one playoff run?

Because you can win a cup that way. This group is fundamentally no different to the one that won the Pacific. All they really need to be a contender is to find that mojo again. They have a chance if they stay the course. Blow it up, and you can count out the next few years with no guarantee that things will be any better after you finish.

"If at first you don't succeed, blow it up again!" may be a fine motto for Junkrat in Overwatch, but if you're trying to win a Stanley Cup you need to acknowledge that sometimes the best way to move forwards is just to move forwards. You don't always have to move backwards to move forwards, and sometimes a move backwards is just a move backwards.

If you are pessimistic about this group, it may be that you are just a pessimist overall. If that's the case, you're likely to be unsatisfied with the next group once they start shedding their mystery. A manager with that sort of outlook would trap his team in a cycle of perpetual rebuilding, thinking he's optimizing his chances by cutting his losses on inadequate groups, but in reality denying his team any chance to progress.

[DomeFoam]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

* properly? On behalf of the goalie, please don’t try to block that shot with your stick

A clean view of a slap shot from the point? Let it through. Every time

Hockeys a fast game and if it clipped his stick off a one timer from Shea Weber i really don't see any fault of his own. If it results in a negative outcome like it did, the play is under the microscope and blame is placed. If it goes wide of the net or over the glass he's a hero.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by KootenayFlamesFan

My whole thing is you have to ask your self 'Is this a championship caliber team, now or in the near future?'

For me.....no, and it's not even close. And if it's not, what are we doing? What's the point of holding on to the same core hoping that they fluke out and catch lightning in a bottle one playoff run?

I really don't want to blow it up because the Flames looked like crap in a game in Montreal in January, I really don't care in the grand scheme of things. I want to blow it up because I don't think you build championship teams being dependent on guys like Gaudreau and Monahan to lead you there. The Flames have some nice young pieces, hold on to those, see what you can get for other players and try to actually build a legitimate contending team. Stop trying to build a team that will just get you in the playoffs, try building a team that actually has a chance to win it all.

Someone on here in the summer said something that stuck with me. You don't blow up a team that is likely to make the playoffs if you're an owner. That makes sense to me.

I don't like the core either, and hopefully they can isolate how best to change the core, but a team that should be a 5-6 team in a normal West won't blow it up.

They shouldn't have to.

I don't like the anti-Gaudreau arguments, but I do agree about contract management. If he bounces back this year they have some questions to ask themselves.

What would he want to extend? (may be more reasonable in Covid)
Are they comfortable with that? (8yrs x 10M would scare the hell out of me)
What can they get for him in a trade that would move the team forward?

But that isn't blowing it up ... it's changing the core more due to contract management, but the same effect is achieved. Change.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Nope. Coaches teach the d to deflect every shot, because they almost always go away.

Yeah, no.

Coaches I have had and with generally encourage situational awareness and appropriate reaction

Edit: also an important part of goaltending is telling your d to get out of the way

[browna]

Originally Posted by KootenayFlamesFan

I really hope BT doesn't think the coach is the only/main problem with this team. It would be great if the team could hire a new coach and flip a switch and become a contender but it's not happening. The makeup of the team is a much bigger issue.

So this team's makeup is "lesser" than the one 2 seasons ago, in your opinion?

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by KootenayFlamesFan

I really hope BT doesn't think the coach is the only/main problem with this team. It would be great if the team could hire a new coach and flip a switch and become a contender but it's not happening. The makeup of the team is a much bigger issue.

I find it extremely difficult to come to that conclusion when the organization nearly exclusively hires coaches that wouldn't get a job with any other NHL team.

[blender]

I've avoided posting in this thread until the overreacting calmed down a bit, and even though I feel like it is ridiculous to have a "blow it up" thread 6 games into the season, I will make this comment:

During the off-season I argued that IF the team wanted to change the makeup of the team and acquire the true 1C that many feel we must have to be a contender, then the move would have been to trade Tkachuk to Ottawa for the 3rd overall and draft Stutzle.

Not saying they should have, but food for discussion. A true "blow up" would surely involve moving their top assets for picks or prospects as that is how it generally done.

[Azhouse]

Originally Posted by Jaydee

Tkachuk is overrated, I would have done 1 for 1 Dubois

He pi$$es me off more and more as the seasons go by. He talks a good game though. He’s definitely not worth the $9mil per he’s going to be asking for in his next contract.

[TheSquatch]

Originally Posted by keenan87

Honestly, I also think this team is missing that veteran older player with swagger who glues everything together. No, I don't think Giordano is that guy because he has never done much in the playoffs.

I am thinking a guy like Pavelski, Getzlaf, J. Williams, Perry ... Someone who can be had for low acquisition cost but will come in demanding respect from the group.

Lucic could have been the guy but his on ice play has been pretty bad. A guy like Getzlaf on this team would make a tremendous difference I think. Frankly, even Perry could have been a good option this past off-season.

I've said this for years, and Getzlaf is the name I bring up, because he's super fierce, and hates to lose. And that's what is lacking on the Flames, has been for years. Even Iginla, who could be dominating, was never in that category - just too nice of a guy. Messier is another. Perry. These guys play on the edge, physically and mentally. Boring Sean Monahan might not like losing, but he's not gonna break his stick on the boards after a bad game, and this team desperately needs someone like that in a leadership position. "Hey let's go have a great game!" just doesn't cut it. Tkachuk is the closest the team has, a muck-raker and a real pain, but he isn't quite at the play-driving level he needs to be at to really take the team over. This team is full of quality players, Lindholm, Backlund, Mangiapane, but doesn't have that one identity guy. Gio never quite cut it, even with his Norris, the team is inconsistent and the effort not there some nights. Flat starts.... the core needs a shake up and a genuine unstoppable Captain if they are going to win. But again, management's mandate is "make the playoffs", which they sometimes do, so that's that.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Iggy?

He was not nice on the ice. He was intimidating

I remember seeing an episode of Behind the B when Iggy was on the Bruins. DeKeyser was in a scrum and getting chippy with Krejci. You could hear Iggy “There’s bigger boys for you, DeKeyser. Just say the word”. He was, of course, smiling at the time.

[chedder]

I'm of the mind that if the Flames do go the blow it up route that Treliving is handed his walking papers first. Same thing if we end up hiring a new coach. This is Tre's team and this season should be make or break for him and the current core.

[Johnny Makarov]

Originally Posted by KootenayFlamesFan

I really hope BT doesn't think the coach is the only/main problem with this team. It would be great if the team could hire a new coach and flip a switch and become a contender but it's not happening. The makeup of the team is a much bigger issue.

The biggest problem on this team is Gio. He sold his soul to the devil to win the norris and has been terrible since.

Also if you are questioning leadership on this team you can point to him. ZERO playoff series wins as Captain. He needs to be off this team sooner than later.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by chedder

I'm of the mind that if the Flames do go the blow it up route that Treliving is handed his walking papers first. Same thing if we end up hiring a new coach. This is Tre's team and this season should be make or break for him and the current core.

If the team was going to go complete tear down I agree new architect needed but I would think for sure it would likely be Conroy or Pascal that would be given the job. Let’s be real though the owners refused to rebuild when the team was being carried by Iginla and Kiprusoff who were both in their 30’s I can’t see them agreeing to tear it down with a core built of players in the 22-27 age group and not to mention a freshly minted 30 year old goalie with a full NMC.

The team will be retooled long before we see a sell off for picks, prospects and tanking approach like the Sens are living through

[chedder]

Totally agree with above. Was just my wish. We all know this ownership won't do anything major and we'll squander the positives we have. And we better not bargain bin on Pascal. What has he done anywhere to say he could be an NHL gm?