Garbage bag day

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

Why should the sons bear the sins of the father? I think this is quite unfair to Matthew.

The 'won no cups' part is trash, so it's not really the sins of the Father.
Keith always has always been and remains a significant influence in his sons lives, and rightfully so.
And Keith never backed down once during contract negotiations. He signed an offer sheet early in career and later held out with 2 years left on his contract.
With him as adviser, I expect Matthew will negotiate hard.
For example, I expect Matthew would not have signed the deal Gaudreau did, that avoided his potential holdout. But that's only my opinion.
It's not hard to separate the business side from the hockey side, imo, and I expect to have to do this with Tkachuk, maybe sooner than later. Had to with Iginla as well, who held out once and threatened to a second time - none of which diminished him in my eyes.
Not suggesting Tkachuk will be a hold out. Just saying he will need to be paid lots.

[TheScorpion]

Gaudreau was paid 9.25% of the cap in 2015.

If Tkachuk is paid 9.25% of the 2019-20 cap, he'll be paid $7.6775 million.

[GioforPM]

I think Tkachuk gets signed for a shorter term, but I don't think he will take as long as Johnny. Johnny has said himself that the lost time wasn't good, and told Tkachuk to get it done quicker. I think Treliving is getting really good at these things and will be able to get it done quicker.

His dad held out, true, and the negotiations aren't going to be easy. But it's a different world now, and the Nylander example is still out there to show how holdouts don't work.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

The 'won no cups' part is trash, so it's not really the sins of the Father.
Keith always has always been and remains a significant influence in his sons lives, and rightfully so.
And Keith never backed down once during contract negotiations. He signed an offer sheet early in career and later held out with 2 years left on his contract.
With him as adviser, I expect Matthew will negotiate hard.
For example, I expect Matthew would not have signed the deal Gaudreau did, that avoided his potential holdout. But that's only my opinion.
It's not hard to separate the business side from the hockey side, imo, and I expect to have to do this with Tkachuk, maybe sooner than later. Had to with Iginla as well, who held out once and threatened to a second time - none of which diminished him in my eyes.
Not suggesting Tkachuk will be a hold out. Just saying he will need to be paid lots.

Keith Tkachuk also played for the dirt poor Jets who couldn’t or didn’t want to pay fair market value. Iginla also negotiated hard for every cent.

Tkachuk won’t take a discount for sure, but if the Flames are willing to pay what he is worth, I don’t think it will be a difficult negotiation. His value should be relatively straight forward. I think how the negotiations go will depend more on the Flames than Tkachuk.

[Northendzone]

being from winnipeg, myself and my friends joke often around keith t holding out.

i am trying to think of when the last time a higher profile/star player held out in the middle of a contract like keith did - anyone have any examples of that?

i hope that chucky gets a deal done before camp, i'd hate to see a good young flames player come in and post nylander numbers while likely being the highest paid player on the team.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Keith Tkachuk also played for the dirt poor Jets who couldn’t or didn’t want to pay fair market value. Iginla also negotiated hard for every cent.

Tkachuk won’t take a discount for sure, but if the Flames are willing to pay what he is worth, I don’t think it will be a difficult negotiation. His value should be relatively straight forward I think how the negotiations go will depend more on the Flames than Tkachuk.

Well technically, it was the Coyotes that were at the other end of the holdout, but point still valid.

ETA: While with the Jets, he signed an offer sheet from the Hawks which the Jets matched, for $17M over 5 years (but with a hefty $6M in the first year). The Jets matched. The front end nature made his holdout in 98 a little more unpleasant (he took the big year and then held out on the cheaper ones).

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Well technically, it was the Coyotes that were at the other end of the holdout, but point still valid.

The offer sheet he signed was when with the Jets, who matched.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

The offer sheet he signed was when with the Jets, who matched.

Yeah, and then he held out a couple years later after the move.

[cannon7]

Don't think Frrolik deserves the salt from some around here after his comments. He's right. And what do you expect him to say after the rumored Zucker trade?

[cannon7]

Oh, and Jankowski is the least of our problems.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Keith Tkachuk also played for the dirt poor Jets who couldn’t or didn’t want to pay fair market value. Iginla also negotiated hard for every cent.

Tkachuk won’t take a discount for sure, but if the Flames are willing to pay what he is worth, I don’t think it will be a difficult negotiation. His value should be relatively straight forward. I think how the negotiations go will depend more on the Flames than Tkachuk.

So his value is > Nylander and < A Matthews
But where exactly, and for what term and pretty important parts of negotiations.

But yes, I agree. I think it will be done in good time.
I also think I will wish it was for less AAV and more years.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Keith Tkachuk also played for the dirt poor Jets who couldn’t or didn’t want to pay fair market value. Iginla also negotiated hard for every cent.

Tkachuk won’t take a discount for sure, but if the Flames are willing to pay what he is worth, I don’t think it will be a difficult negotiation. His value should be relatively straight forward. I think how the negotiations go will depend more on the Flames than Tkachuk.

But isn't that the crux of the discussion?

What IS his value?

I believe that he will look for something between Matthews and whatever Laine/Marner get, and rightfully so.

That number is going to be 9 million or so...maybe a bit more. Matthews at 11.5 sort of set the bar although he scores more and is a C. Marner wont settle for 3 million less than his team mate that he has outpointed since they came in together. So that puts him at 9+. Laine had a weird year but again goal scorers get paid. All this is to say, that Matthew is going to get paid very very well.

So, are we OK with a 5/6 year $9.5 million per deal? Cause that will be the kind of money he is looking for.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by cannon7

Oh, and Jankowski is the least of our problems.

No. The defence is the least of Calgary's problems going forward. The fourth line is close behind. The top line underperforming was the biggest. Jankowski is right there in the middle.

I realize that Neal is the whipping boy, and he deserves it. But if he's going to be "cured" I don't think it's with Jankowski. I wouldn't have minded getting someone like Perron at the deadline. Someone with a bit of history with Neal.

[TheScorpion]

Originally Posted by cannon7

Oh, and Jankowski is the least of our problems.

He's a 13th-forward/4th-line calibre player being counted on to play 3rd-line minutes. I think that's an area of concern. Mikael Backlund would look far better in that role.

Without tearing it down completely, I'd like to see something like this to start next year:

Gaudreau - new centre - Lindholm
Tkachuk - Monahan - Neal
Bennett - Backlund - Mangiapane
Dube - Ryan - big guy, Brian Boyle?

I think Jankowski is a sure bet to be shipped off. Hathaway will likely command $1.5 as a minimum in UFA and he should not be re-signed.

I think Brian Boyle might make some sense in UFA. He's a towering presence who's really effective at both ends of the ice. He's like a Jankowski with some snarl.

[Toonage]

I like what I heard from Neal, and Treliving's comments about him were also what was expected. But I have to think under the surface the duck legs are kicking and Tre will be doing everything in his power to move that contract.

[Flash Walken]

I bet Tkachuk is one of the last contracts to sign in August.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Toonage

I like what I heard from Neal, and Treliving's comments about him were also what was expected. But I have to think under the surface the duck legs are kicking and Tre will be doing everything in his power to move that contract.

when steinberg asked him if he thought neal could bounce back, if this was 'just a down year', i feel like i could hear the gears grinding in his head through the mic about how to diplomatically say 'no'.

It wouldn't shock me if with this new russian guy coming in, Kylington is included in a deal to move neal out of town.

[Toonage]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

when steinberg asked him if he thought neal could bounce back, if this was 'just a down year', i feel like i could hear the gears grinding in his head through the mic about how to diplomatically say 'no'.

It wouldn't shock me if with this new russian guy coming in, Kylington is included in a deal to move neal out of town.

It will absolutely cost them to move that contract. Might be a player, might be picks, might be retained salary but yeah they'll pay.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

when steinberg asked him if he thought neal could bounce back, if this was 'just a down year', i feel like i could hear the gears grinding in his head through the mic about how to diplomatically say 'no'.

It wouldn't shock me if with this new russian guy coming in, Kylington is included in a deal to move neal out of town.

If they're willing to sacrifice Kylington to move Neal, just buy out Neal.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

If they're willing to sacrifice Kylington to move Neal, just buy out Neal.

This may be harsh, but live in reality here.

If the flames buy out Neal it will be because there wasn't a single team in the league even willing to entertain taking a major asset to absorb him.

Murray Edwards is not going to pay James Neal 15 million bucks to go away, and having an 8 year cap penalty of 1.9 million on the roster boggles the mind in terms of wasted opportunity cost.

If you can move Neal, stone, kylington and this years first to Phoenix for a 2nd or a 3rd I say start the car. If I was replying to my own post here I might even scoff at that value as being too low.

I think Tre accidentally gave us a window into the cost of moving Neal and that cost to Ottawa was a 1st round pick and one of the top young d prospects.

If that gets you 9 million more dollars to play with immediately I pull that trigger all week long and twice on Sundays.

If you want to win with this group in the next 3 seasons, opportunity cost is the most significant factor to consider.

Need capspace to get contributing players immediately.

Edit: If faced with the prospect of buying neal out to the tune of 1.9 x 8 years and just playing him and hoping his value bounces back even marginally, they will keep him on the roster on the 4th line and hope he gets a couple of bounces and proves to not be below replacement level.

Buying him out is just...it is by far, by FAR, the most unattractive option for the organization.