His path of destruction is all in the name of a greater goal, he's not just a bezerker anymore.
What I'm hoping is that he's no longer a pouty teenager in the next movie, and he's not evil for evil's sake.
Exactly this, it is such a good moment in villain history. It informs exactly what a sith is. He's not just virtue signaling to a cause he is desperate to be accepted by, he's an arsonist, burn it all down, because only he can rebuild it in his image.
To make this movie a Kylo redemption story would destroy all of that.
His love for Rey might need to be his downfall. But not out of weakness or compassion, because he sees her and her power as an asset to installing his new galactic order.
What if Palpatine was alive all this time? No force ghost. Just alive. The Jedi couldn't detect him in the prequel trilogy then it shouldn't be hard for him to hide again manipulating the universe waiting for the right time to retake control.
What if Kylo knew that ol' Palpy was alive? What if Kylo was going to finish what his grandfather started, like he said in episode VII, but he was truly referring to ending Palpatine? Kylo would be feigning allegiance to the dark side just to get close enough to Palpatine. This could explain why he was so bad at being bad. He had too much good in him because he was trying to save the galaxy from the ultimate bad guy, Palpatine.
We already got him! He was personally responsible for the demolition of Galactic Order and the creation of The Empire.
Jar Jar was a Sith all along, he was just acting stupid so nobody would suspect him. Its the only plausible explanation unless George was just trolling us.
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I loved The Force Awakens so I’m optimistic JJ can do a good job wrapping this one up, but after TLJ I’m only that, optimistic. The excitement I had for TLJ definitely isn’t there this time. They need a home run here. They can make TLJ a great movie with this one if they tie it in properly.
I am very intrigued by Palpatine though. Hopefully this explains a bit more.
Oh, and we better get a proper lightsaber duel in this one. We’ve had three straight films without one.
I know anecdotes aren't good evidence but I've probably talked to 15-20 different people about TLJ, and after the initial excitement of first viewings, basically everyone's opinion has settled into the range between "meh" and "that sucked my lightsaber". you can even feel it in the cultural impact, TFA spawned a whole lot more references and memes, while I can't remember anyone using a TLJ clip for anything these days.
anyways, I doubt that very loud, very vocal minority was responsible for the $700 million box office drop from Ep 7 to 8. that's a bit tougher to explain away with accusations of nerds, misogynists and racists.
Do you mean the typical box office drop that all Star Wars movies experience between the 1st and second movies in the trilogy.
I thought TLJ nailed the Lore but executed a poor movie.
Rey being told ambiguously she was from nothing
Snoke not being important
Luke being a bitter recluse
The entire Rey/Ren relationship
The dual view from Ren/Luke on the creation of Ren
The concept that their are no good guys in these wars
These things fit the characters and history so well.
The problem was the movie itself had some cringeworthy moments
- the humour in the start
- the whole concept of the car chase plot
- the whole casino planet
- Leia Mary poppins rather than dying
Take away Star Wars from the title and that is not a great movie which is a shame because of how well they executed Luke.
So going forward I really hope they don’t undue lore decisions. You have to think that all the lore went through the committee at Disney so I think those things were set in stone. That said the way Rey learns of her parentage was certainly from an unreliable narrator who was trying to control her. So her being someone wouldn’t be ret-conning. It would fit with how they executed TLJ similar to the Vader killed your father from ANH.
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What if Palpatine was alive all this time? No force ghost. Just alive. The Jedi couldn't detect him in the prequel trilogy then it shouldn't be hard for him to hide again manipulating the universe waiting for the right time to retake control.
What if Kylo knew that ol' Palpy was alive? What if Kylo was going to finish what his grandfather started, like he said in episode VII, but he was truly referring to ending Palpatine? Kylo would be feigning allegiance to the dark side just to get close enough to Palpatine. This could explain why he was so bad at being bad. He had too much good in him because he was trying to save the galaxy from the ultimate bad guy, Palpatine.
Yeah, except ramming a laser sword through his defenseless dad, torturing people, trying to kill his uncle aren't the indications of anything but evil. Even killing Snoke to seize power isn't the act of a good guy.
I would hope that Palpatine isn't alive because it would basically render the end of the OT as two incredibly powerful force users kill the ultimate evil in the galaxy except they really didn't.
I would hope that we're not getting a sudden Palpatine is alive reveal in the last movie of the trilogy, it would also make Snoke look even more ridiculous.
I'm hoping its a flashback or a recording, I'm even hoping that its not a force ghost as the whole force ghost thing would be too ghostbusters for its own good.
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Do you mean the typical box office drop that all Star Wars movies experience between the 1st and second movies in the trilogy.
I thought TLJ nailed the Lore but executed a poor movie.
Rey being told ambiguously she was from nothing
Snoke not being important
Luke being a bitter recluse
The entire Rey/Ren relationship
The dual view from Ren/Luke on the creation of Ren
The concept that their are no good guys in these wars
These things fit the characters and history so well.
The problem was the movie itself had some cringeworthy moments
- the humour in the start
- the whole concept of the car chase plot
- the whole casino planet
- Leia Mary poppins rather than dying
Take away Star Wars from the title and that is not a great movie which is a shame because of how well they executed Luke.
I agree with you Triple G. There were some underlying concepts that were really very smart as you listed. The execution and the stuff that they surrounded those things with were the problem.
I would add that the dark side cave made absolutely no sense and was done so we could have infinite Rey's snapping her finger.
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Agreed. Rogue One story was very well written and woven into the original trilogy.
The beauty of Rogue One was a well written story, nicely presented movie and you really didn't need to understand Star Wars to follow it and enjoy it. For Star Wars fan, it equally tied a major event together.
In terms of actually being a good and watchable film for all, it might be number one of the bunch.
The beauty of Rogue One was a well written story, nicely presented movie and you really didn't need to understand Star Wars to follow it and enjoy it. For Star Wars fan, it equally tied a major event together.
In terms of actually being a good and watchable film for all, it might be number one of the bunch.
And it just had the feel and spirit of Star Wars. Rogue One really was an excellent movie.
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The beauty of Rogue One was a well written story, nicely presented movie and you really didn't need to understand Star Wars to follow it and enjoy it. For Star Wars fan, it equally tied a major event together.
In terms of actually being a good and watchable film for all, it might be number one of the bunch.
I liked it because I'm old and I was a fan of those old war movies like the dirty dozen.
We had a movie that didn't even have a Force using mega being until the end.
We had the rag tag group of freedom fighters on a quest against a huge monstrous military power.
That there was a huge cost to victory. I mean even with the Death Star Plans, if we didn't know about ANH, we'd be looking at this as a major loss for the Rebels.
1) Most of the Rebel Fleet and their senior commander were destroyed or dead.
2) All of our hero's had died
3) The planet with the data and the plans was destroyed
4) The one data tape was on a ship that Darth Vader knew about and would relentlessly track with the weight of the Empire didn't really know what they had on the tape
5) The Rebellion was fractured with some leaders pushing for surrender.
6) The Empire had a now tested and functional super weapon
It still took a 1 in a billion shot for any of this to be a victory but it was costly, something that the fledgling Rebellion couldn't handle. You would think after this movie that the Rebellion was in bad shake
In the opening crawl of ANH they talked about the Rebellion gaining their first victory, but admittedly a lot of that victory was self inflicted by the Empire
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Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch
Yeah, except ramming a laser sword through his defenseless dad, torturing people, trying to kill his uncle aren't the indications of anything but evil. Even killing Snoke to seize power isn't the act of a good guy.
I would hope that Palpatine isn't alive because it would basically render the end of the OT as two incredibly powerful force users kill the ultimate evil in the galaxy except they really didn't.
I would hope that we're not getting a sudden Palpatine is alive reveal in the last movie of the trilogy, it would also make Snoke look even more ridiculous.
I'm hoping its a flashback or a recording, I'm even hoping that its not a force ghost as the whole force ghost thing would be too ghostbusters for its own good.
Maybe it’s a rule of two thing. Perhaps Palpatine was severely crippled but survived the death star. And we learn Snoke was his dopey apprentice, and then Palpatine arranged/manipulated Ren to do his dirty work because Snoke was dangerous to a crippled Palpatine.
I could see Palpatine still pulling the strings as a very crippled, basically bodiless angry dark side pile of mush. Snoke could be one of his henchmen who went down on the deathstar with him - hence the scarring - who Palpatine basically used as his body and protection since he’s just a pile of goo.
Ren learns he’s been used by the playdough Palpatine, and seeks him out for training, which Palpatine is wary of, as he’s very vulnerable to anybody able to stomp him like gum on a sidewalk, but trains Ren in exchange for safety.
Meanwhile, Rey is also being trained up, and will learn that - yes - she is a skywalker, and she’ll convince Ren to forego great power and end the gooey-one’s existence finally.
Maybe it’s a rule of two thing. Perhaps Palpatine was severely crippled but survived the death star. And we learn Snoke was his dopey apprentice, and then Palpatine arranged/manipulated Ren to do his dirty work because Snoke was dangerous to a crippled Palpatine.
I could see Palpatine still pulling the strings as a very crippled, basically bodiless angry dark side pile of mush. Snoke could be one of his henchmen who went down on the deathstar with him - hence the scarring - who Palpatine basically used as his body and protection since he’s just a pile of goo.
Ren learns he’s been used by the playdough Palpatine, and seeks him out for training, which Palpatine is wary of, as he’s very vulnerable to anybody able to stomp him like gum on a sidewalk, but trains Ren in exchange for safety.
Meanwhile, Rey is also being trained up, and will learn that - yes - she is a skywalker, and she’ll convince Ren to forego great power and end the gooey-one’s existence finally.
Them’s my completely unfounded predictions.
The rule of two is interesting to me, it was the way that the Sith got around sharing power and going to war with each other like they did in the Old Republic.
Two there are no more and no less, one to embody power and one to crave it.
The way to become a True Lord of the Sith is to learn at the feet of your master to the point where you surpass him, then you kill him take the mantle and find an apprentice.
At the end of ROTJ when Vader killed Palpatine and then died, it effectively ended the Banite Sith line, and all of that knowledge that had been gathered over thousands of years was lost.
To add on the concept of bringing balance to the Force is a prophesy that could have been mis-interpreted. I mean the logical thing is that bringing the force into balance would mean equal parts of dark and light. But in the end the Sith were dead. The Skywalkers remained, thus the Force was out of balance and would react by bringing in darkness.
However just because Snoke was a Dark side user that doesn't mean that he was a Sith, nor was Ren, there was never an indication that they followed the Sith philosophy. Though if they did, then in theory when Ren killed Snoke he would have ascended to the mantle of Dark Lord of the Sith.
If you go back and watch Clone Wars, in the episode where Sidious confronted Maul and his brother, he plainly told Maul that he had been replaced as an Apprentice and basically cast out and enslaved.
I don't know if I buy that Palpatine survived, I could honestly be wrong, but I would think that there would have to be some pretty interesting Lore gymnastics to make it happen. Plus it would realistically make Ren a slave again after breaking his chains by killing Snoke.
I'm just pumped if they're bringing back Ian McDarmid who is awesome frankly. But whether he's alive and resurgent after ramming face first into a huge reactor, of he's a phantom which I don't think would make sense, or a flashback or holocron, I'm glad to have him involved.
Oh and on the Force Ghost thing. There's always been an argument that dark side users can't become a Force Ghost like a light side user because a big part of becoming a Force Ghost is about not only sacrifice but letting go of your life. A Sith is absolutely terrified of Death because it represents a loss of power, and Sith don't sacrifice, they sacrifice others.
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To me it always seemed like it was JJ Abrahms intent to have Snoke be tutored by Palpatine in some way. I don't think Palpatine survived, but I do think he left some kind of roadmap hidden in the far reaches of the galaxy, as a contingency plan. This is what Snoke found, and the new order was more than just inspired by the Empire. We'll see Palpatine in some kind of instructional recording.
Nah man if you drop a tease like that and then have him appear as “some sort of instructional recording” it might be the worst bait and switch in movie promotion history.
Nah man if you drop a tease like that and then have him appear as “some sort of instructional recording” it might be the worst bait and switch in movie promotion history.
I think we'll see flashbacks too, that will show how Palpatine put his plan into place.
I'm really not into the idea of Palpatine surviving. Palpatine acting as a force ghost also makes sense, as the Sith are only out for themselves.
