"Me Too"

[81MC]

Is everything really so combative though? As if being a male who had been harassed wouldn't be terrible enough, having to 'wait until there was space' to bring up the issue would absolutely feel like the issue was minimized. I get where the sentiment comes from, but would we really ever say something like that about women?
"Sorry, right now we're discussing sexual abuse towards children. Your have to wait a bit to discuss the abuse you've encountered as a woman, because the optics". Seems like that's the exact mentality we need to be fighting against.

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by Thor

Its simply the same idiots who chant #alllivesmatter when BLM is protesting.

The #metoo campaign has been about the systematic abuse that has been place of men in power over women abusing their positions of authority, and of course it has branched off from that to other more general issues of abuse for girls, women and of course men.

I can't say I have seen any of the men who have posted their stories on FB being attacked for it.

But for me the whole thing has been very powerful because its creating a huge discussion everywhere, from family dinners, to at work places and that ultimately is I think the whole point as there is clearly a major issue that it seems people underestimate the size and scope of the problem.

Hopefully it does some good, I think it already has simply by becoming this massive discussion happening all over the world.

I know I learned quite a lot about a lot of things when I was in school for interior design. Because I was the only guy in my class, I was one of the defacto people that others felt comfortable to talk about the horrible things that went on in their life because I wasn't one of the girls and they felt comfortable sharing. Also, I'm a good listener and give good advice generally so a number of people in the class would ask about things and I was taken aback by how prevalent some of the nastiness was in terms of abuse. Family members abusing them or them discussing what their boyfriends or other males in their lives were doing and if that was normal (most of the time that was a clear no).

I felt horrible learning how prevalent it was. So I tend to believe things when stories come out about certain people are abusing their power to be disgusting, Harvey Weinstein, Donald Trump, Bill Cosby and a whole host of others are awful people. Educating people on what happens will do nothing but help to slowly change people's perspective. There will always be the types that lag behind the times and you can't change them (trump voters that still support him for example) but you can make them an ever dwindling minority.

[photon]

(in response to 81MC)

In principle I agree, but the problem is that there's a pattern of trying to marginalize women talking about the issue.

Making sure I don't come across as trying to marginalize their discussion sure doesn't make me feel like my issue is being marginalized; it's the opposite, I'm making sure I'm treating them the same way I'd want to be treated.

If I'm at a social gathering and someone is talking about when they lost their parents, me trying to enforce my idea on how they want to share their experience doesn't feel like the right kind of response.

EDIT: If there was a way to ensure that my contribution could be differentiated from those trying to diminish women's voice then great, I just don't know if there is.

[Grimbl420]

Originally Posted by photon

It's an analogy, not a direct comparison. You're misinterpreting what was said and reacting to that.

No I don't think I was. and an analogy is a comparison for the purpose of explanation.

His point is valid, trying to interject into a discussion and change the topic can definitely be viewed as an attempt to subvert or trivialize the topic, even if that's not the intent. Especially since that actually is a real tactic by some when women talk about sexual assault. Blame those that truly are trying to subvert or poison the discussion that it is viewed that way.

The idea that talking about male issues takes away from female issues is insane, but seem to be prevalent.

If I was trying to raise awareness about sexual assault on men, and I was going to start #mentoo discussion, I certainly wouldn't do it right after #metoo becomes prevalent, otherwise it looks like I'm trying to distract or diminish. I'd wait until there was space for it.

again the idea that talking about men's issues somehow diminishes women's issues is wrong. we can and should be addressing both equally.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Grimbl420

No I don't think I was. and an analogy is a comparison for the purpose of explanation.

The idea that talking about male issues takes away from female issues is insane, but seem to be prevalent.

again the idea that talking about men's issues somehow diminishes women's issues is wrong. we can and should be addressing both equally.

So you acknowledge that the harassment of men and women are two different issues with different causes and solutions if so

Why Now?

At its best it hurt victims feeling that they now have a voice at its worst its whataboutism. And from what I am seeing in Men making me too posts is its a lot closer to whataboutism. Just read through Alpine Oracles denfense of your post. Effectively using males being harassed to win an argument about the moral high ground of a gender. Using #metoo to defend a gender misses the point.

Also my analogy is apt. When you post in a discussion about something tangental but related to the original topic don't be surprised if you are told you are derailing the discussion.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by Grimbl420

again the idea that talking about men's issues somehow diminishes women's issues is wrong. we can and should be addressing both equally.

One of the main points of the #MeToo campaign is that sexual harassment and violence is not an issue that affects both genders equally, a fact that has come as a surprise to many men after seeing just how many women in their social media circles (almost all of them) are posting "Me too" and telling their stories. Yes, some men are also victims of harassment (and nobody has ever said otherwise), but the extent of the problem for men is not anywhere near the same as it is for women. This is an issue that disproportionately affects one gender far more than the other.

[ResAlien]

Surprised it took this long for this to reach the “all lives matter” stage.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Grimbl420

No I don't think I was. and an analogy is a comparison for the purpose of explanation.

Exactly, for the purpose of explanation, not for the purpose of declaring equivalence.

Originally Posted by Grimbl420

again the idea that talking about men's issues somehow diminishes women's issues is wrong. we can and should be addressing both equally.

This is a straw man, I never claimed that talking about men's issues diminishes women's issues. It's the when and how and intent. If I jump into an already running conversation saying "pay attention to my issues" people won't pay attention to me and may think I'm trying to hijack the conversation. Instead I wait until a natural place to join the conversation where my experiences contribute rather than distract.

[Grimbl420]

Originally Posted by photon

Exactly, for the purpose of explanation, not for the purpose of declaring equivalence.

The shunning oilers fans receive on a flames message board and the shunning and silencing of sexual harassment victims because they're not the right gender is a disgusting comparison to make. That's my personal opinion.

This is a straw man, I never claimed that talking about men's issues diminishes women's issues. It's the when and how and intent. If I jump into an already running conversation saying "pay attention to my issues" people won't pay attention to me and may think I'm trying to hijack the conversation. Instead I wait until a natural place to join the conversation where my experiences contribute rather than distract.

You absolutely did. How and when should not matter when a victim comes forward no matter their gender. And intent of a victim coming forward...Really? What exactly is the intent of a victim sharing their story? to be told to shut up?

Like I said it's disgusting that men sharing their stories of harassment are being told they are in the wrong for doing so.

Comparing my argument that shaming men into silence about being victims because it's not the right time is wrong to the All lives matter argument is the straw man in this thread.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Grimbl420

How and when should not matter when a victim comes forward no matter their gender. And intent of a victim coming forward...Really? What exactly is the intent of a victim sharing their story? to be told to shut up?

Like I said it's disgusting that men sharing their stories of harassment are being told they are in the wrong for doing so.

Out of curiosity, can you provide some evidence of this happening? Especially here. I haven’t actually seen it but I’d be curious over what posts here upset you.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Grimbl420

The shunning oilers fans receive on a flames message board and the shunning and silencing of sexual harassment victims because they're not the right gender is a disgusting comparison to make. That's my personal opinion.



You absolutely did. How and when should not matter when a victim comes forward no matter their gender. And intent of a victim coming forward...Really? What exactly is the intent of a victim sharing their story? to be told to shut up?

Like I said it's disgusting that men sharing their stories of harassment are being told they are in the wrong for doing so.

Comparing my argument that shaming men into silence about being victims because it's not the right time is wrong to the All lives matter argument is the straw man in this thread.

Why now?

The sharing I have seen is the defense of a gender saying it's not only us and not an honest conversation. Your experience may be different

Also why is it necessary to include the hashtag rather than just discuss it.

You also miss the point of the analogy. It's that off topic discussion is shunned. Not the animosity between the fan groups. You may choose to intentionally misinterpret it if you want to.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by ResAlien

Surprised it took this long for this to reach the “all lives matter” stage.

Seems like telling someone they're being like the "all lives matter" crowd, is the easy way of trying to shut down their position.

I didn't relate what that particular poster had brought up to an all lives matter type position but that is an effective method to simplify these discussions and keep unwelcome input out of this thread.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Grimbl420

The shunning oilers fans receive on a flames message board and the shunning and silencing of sexual harassment victims because they're not the right gender is a disgusting comparison to make. That's my personal opinion.

Because you're choosing to see it in a way that wasn't intended. It's been explained to you what's actually meant, taking it differently than a person intended initially is one thing, but doing so after it's been clarified is intentional. If you're going to intentionally take something someone said in a different way than they intended it, there really isn't any point of discussion is there? It doesn't matter what anyone says if someone decides not to understand what they're trying to say.

Originally Posted by Grimbl420

You absolutely did.

Nope, and you confirm it with your next sentence.

I said "I never claimed that talking about men's issues diminishes women's issues"

You say I did, then your next words are:

Originally Posted by Grimbl420

How and when

How and when aren't simply talking about men's issues, they're how and when.

Originally Posted by Grimbl420

How and when should not matter when a victim comes forward no matter their gender. And intent of a victim coming forward...Really? What exactly is the intent of a victim sharing their story? to be told to shut up?

You're putting words in my mouth again, I use the phrase "talking about men's issues", not "victim coming forward". You can't take what I say and redirect it at something I didn't intend.

Originally Posted by Grimbl420

Comparing my argument that shaming men into silence about being victims because it's not the right time is wrong to the All lives matter argument is the straw man in this thread.

It's not even a straw man.

[Grimbl420]

Originally Posted by Grimbl420

I'd like to add that it took me 3 day to post this comment because of fear of the backlash I'd face for this opinion.

Originally Posted by photon

Why would you face backlash for saying it's wrong to shame or silence victims regardless of their gender? I think everyone in the thread would agree with that.

Proceeds to give me backlash for my opinion that male victims shouldn't be shunned in our supposed inclusive society.

Originally Posted by photon

I said "I never claimed that talking about men's issues diminishes women's issues"

then you'll have to forgive me because the following sure seems like an elongated version of what your saying you didn't say. Surly you can see how one could interpret it that way, instead of flat out denying you said it.

Originally Posted by photon

If I was trying to raise awareness about sexual assault on men, and I was going to start #mentoo discussion, I certainly wouldn't do it right after #metoo becomes prevalent, otherwise it looks like I'm trying to distract or diminish. I'd wait until there was space for it.

[GGG]

What response are you looking for when a man shares his story of harassment? Ideally in your opinion what should happen and what is the difference between what is happening and what you would like to happen.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by GGG

The sharing I have seen is the defense of a gender saying it's not only us and not an honest conversation.

How is that dishonest?

[JohnnyB]

"The national anthem has two purposes. First is to honour our flag and our country and the second is to pay respect to our troops. Athletes who take a knee during the anthem are out of place because that's not what this time is for, so it's disrespectful."

"The time right after a shooting is no time to discuss gun laws and how those not directly affected in this tragedy are also affected by gun violence. It's an important discussion, but this is clearly not the right time."

By analogy, are these arguments really so different from those offered by GGG and Photon?

[snootchiebootchies]

Powerful #HimToo article but I have to think the author is putting herself at risk for libel lawsuits as these incidents are decades old.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...b04a400db8afef

Made me think of comedian Charline Yi's tweet about a racist incident with David Cross 10 years ago and Cross claims having no recollection of it. Yet he has been receiving condemnation since being publicly shamed.

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

"The national anthem has two purposes. First is to honour our flag and our country and the second is to pay respect to our troops. Athletes who take a knee during the anthem are out of place because that's not what this time is for, so it's disrespectful."

"The time right after a shooting is no time to discuss gun laws and how those not directly affected in this tragedy are also affected by gun violence. It's an important discussion, but this is clearly not the right time."

By analogy, are these arguments really so different from those offered by GGG and Photon?

This is why analogies are often a bad way to contrast a situation.

Your first analogy is a lot more correlative than your second, so I'll tackle that, because the second isn't really worth addressing.

So, if I'm reading you correctly, you believe

an athlete taking a knee in response to systematic oppression by the justice system and being told to do it elsewhere

is equivocal to

a women speaking out in response to systematic issues in the social system, and then a man saying "well what about my issues?" and being told to do it elsewhere

Do you notice the key difference here? Your analogy is only directly comparable if you give the same weight to the anthem as a broad swath of women openly admitting their issues.

Do you believe that these men would be bringing these issues up in a vacuum? Specifically, the kneejerk response of most interjectors to hijack this issue (or say, a thread about this issue) is always less about actually looking for a solution, and more about drowning out the voice of women. How many times have you seen kneejerks complain about Male Rape or Against Male Domestic Abuse? In contrast, how many times have you seen these same men volunteer for or fund initiatives to combat these issues? How many times have they included the plight gay men face regarding these issues?

[Red Slinger]

While I understand that we have to be wary of analogies now...

When there is an event to raise awareness and funds to battle breast cancer you don't see others say "yeah, but what about testicular cancer?"