The Flames Expansion Draft Protection/Exposure/Exempt Thread

[AC]

The added wrinkle to signing a UFA like Stone after the expansion draft is that it's likely something Stone would prefer too.

If Stone wants to stay in Calgary, why would he choose to sign before the draft only to be exposed and likely forced to go to Vegas?

If he wants to stay, he'll be happy to negotiate with us after the expansion draft.

[The Fonz]

Originally Posted by AC

If Stone wants to stay in Calgary, why would he choose to sign before the draft only to be exposed and likely forced to go to Vegas?

That's what the league is fighting though. If Stone wants to be in Calgary, and Calgary wants Stone, then the league wants Calgary to re-sign him and protect him in the expansion draft.

To leave Stone un-signed and un-protected, only to sign him after the expansion draft so as not to lose any of Stone/Brodie/Giordano/Hamilton to LV, is a clear circumvention of the expansion draft rules. I realize people are saying "how can they prove it?", but that's really not up to me to determine. The Deputy Commissioner said teams will receive heavy fines (1st round draft choice) if caught "screwing with the rules".

[bigrangy]

But why would Stone sign a contract here before the expansion draft? He would know that

a) he wouldn't be protected

and

b) he would be guaranteed to be claimed because he would be the best asset available from the Flames by a large margin.

So he'd essentially be signing in Las Vegas assuming they're halfway competent in their selection process. What agent is going to let a player do that?

[The Fonz]

I can see that point. I'm just not sure how the league will perceive it.

[AC]

Originally Posted by The Fonz

That's what the league is fighting though. If Stone wants to be in Calgary, and Calgary wants Stone, then the league wants Calgary to re-sign him and protect him in the expansion draft.

To leave Stone un-signed and un-protected, only to sign him after the expansion draft so as not to lose any of Stone/Brodie/Giordano/Hamilton to LV, is a clear circumvention of the expansion draft rules. I realize people are saying "how can they prove it?", but that's really not up to me to determine. The Deputy Commissioner said teams will receive heavy fines (1st round draft choice) if caught "screwing with the rules".

I think the league's concern is contracts that were actually negotiated before the draft and deliberately delayed until "safe".

If the Flames and Stone just say "we'll see where things fit after the draft", then negotiate a contract... it should be airtight.

Regardless, it achieves the same result. But not much the league can do in those situations.

[calgaryblood]

They earned the UFA status. The league can't change the rules for UFA's because of expansion.

If Stone wants to sign in Calgary and as a UFA the league has zero right to tell him he has to sign in Calgary before a certain date in order to be exposed.

[Samonadreau]

Ya thats something I never thought about. The player can't be forced to sign and risk being exposed.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by AC

I think the league's concern is contracts that were actually negotiated before the draft and deliberately delayed until "safe".

If the Flames and Stone just say "we'll see where things fit after the draft", then negotiate a contract... it should be airtight.

Regardless, it achieves the same result. But not much the league can do in those situations.

Agreed 100%.

The league isn't going to go to war over a 4th D trying to prove expansion collusion

[oldschoolcalgary]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

They earned the UFA status. The league can't change the rules for UFA's because of expansion.

If Stone wants to sign in Calgary and as a UFA the league has zero right to tell him he has to sign in Calgary before a certain date in order to be exposed.

agree with this... The league has zero legs to stand on. None.

if a UFA wants to sign for a million dollars less per year, that's his prerogative...UFAs have the right to choose where they want to play

so long as a team and a UFA have no contract discussions before the expansion draft, i don't see how the league can prevent Stone from resigning here.

Finally, the expansion draft is at the end of June...before a player hits the UFA market. So Vegas can claim Stone off of Calgary's roster... but still potentially lose him.

my understanding is that UFA's still count against a team's expansion draft exposure... so if vegas does claim Stone, then the Flames can't lose anyone else to Vegas, even if Stone decides to sign with Calgary after July 1.

Vegas has a 2 day window to negotiate with UFAs before the July 1 open season, so in theory they could also negotiate a "drawer deal" with a UFA, not select them, say Stone as an example...pick Brouwer off and then still sign Stone...so, theoretically, a team can lose 2 players as a result of the expansion draft rules

circumvention of the rules also goes the other direction too...

http://www.tsn.ca/concerns-about-nhl...merge-1.609388

[Flamescuprun2018]

Originally Posted by AC

I think the league's concern is contracts that were actually negotiated before the draft and deliberately delayed until "safe".

If the Flames and Stone just say "we'll see where things fit after the draft", then negotiate a contract... it should be airtight.

Regardless, it achieves the same result. But not much the league can do in those situations.

Just another example of Brad Treliving wizardry.

If correct that Stone family wants to be Calgary given the young twins and family supports and has zero interest in living in Las Vegas. We essentially "protect" a fourth defenseman by waiting out expansion draft and then open negotiations for very first time on June 22nd giving us over one week to iron out contract.

This whole issue can go both ways of course with Las Vegas potentially taking advantage too. Las Vegas has a unique window to meet and negotiate with Stone prior to June 21st with plan only to sign him July 1. They could then choose another Flame on June 21st and still get him too July 1.

Good luck to the NHL on all this. Lots of potential for shenanigans. But Treliving too smart to leave any evidence of such so will smartly wait out June 21st before any conversations on contract.

[Robbob]

After playing with the expansion tool, the salary requirement will not be an issue. If I had guess I think one of our 2013 forwards will be selected.

[Flamescuprun2018]

Originally Posted by oldschoolcalgary

Finally, the expansion draft is at the end of June...before a player hits the UFA market. So Vegas can claim Stone off of Calgary's roster... but still potentially lose him.

my understanding is that UFA's still count against a team's expansion draft exposure... so if vegas does claim Stone, then the Flames can't lose anyone else to Vegas, even if Stone decides to sign with Calgary after July 1.

Vegas has a 2 day window to negotiate with UFAs before the July 1 open season, so in theory they could also negotiate a "drawer deal" with a UFA, not select them, say Stone as an example...pick Brouwer off and then still sign Stone...so, theoretically, a team can lose 2 players as a result of the expansion draft rules

circumvention of the rules also goes the other direction too...

http://www.tsn.ca/concerns-about-nhl...merge-1.609388

I cant imagine Las Vegas taking any unsigned pending UFAs without having signed them by June 21. Too risky to lose for nothing on July 1.

Are we sure they are even allowed to select an unsigned UFA? I thought they had to sign them by June 21. That player would then count as pick at expansion from that team.

[Robbob]

Wild speculation time! There is no rush on getting Treliving's contract done so it appears he has less off season to work with. The rules don't mention anything about delayed announcements on GM contracts.

[oldschoolcalgary]

Originally Posted by Flamescuprun2018

I cant imagine Las Vegas taking any unsigned pending UFAs without having signed them by June 21. Too risky to lose for nothing on July 1.

Are we sure they are even allowed to select an unsigned UFA? I thought they had to sign them by June 21. That player would then count as pick at expansion from that team.

well, this is the qoute from that tsn article i linked:

Specifically, GMs worry that Vegas could take advantage of the 48-hour window before the expansion draft in June to quietly agree to terms on a deal with a pending unrestricted free agent, then wait until July 1 to sign him, so as to pluck another player off a team's roster in the expansion draft.

This would circumvent the rule that if a team loses a free agent to Vegas in that 48-hour free-agent-signing window, it cannot lose another player in the expansion draft. Some GMs worry that veteran GM George McPhee, who wasn't born yesterday, would take advantage of the situation.

so it appears that they can, but teams who lose a UFA are no longer exposed to the expansion draft...

i'm no expert... this article was from the beginning of november

[Flamescuprun2018]

Originally Posted by oldschoolcalgary

well, this is the qoute from that tsn article i linked:

Specifically, GMs worry that Vegas could take advantage of the 48-hour window before the expansion draft in June to quietly agree to terms on a deal with a pending unrestricted free agent, then wait until July 1 to sign him, so as to pluck another player off a team's roster in the expansion draft.

This would circumvent the rule that if a team loses a free agent to Vegas in that 48-hour free-agent-signing window, it cannot lose another player in the expansion draft. Some GMs worry that veteran GM George McPhee, who wasn't born yesterday, would take advantage of the situation.

so it appears that they can, but teams who lose a UFA are no longer exposed to the expansion draft...

i'm no expert... this article was from the beginning of november

It remains a bit unclear for sure.

My interpretation is that LV can certainly circumvent the rules and sign later on July 1. Which allows them to grab more than one Flame potentially.

But does not look like they can select an unsigned pending UFA RFA player June 21.

They would have sign such player by June 21 for that to be their Flames selection. Which they are certainly free to do.

[Poe969]

LV can sign Engelland in that window but then they wouldn't be able to select anyone from the flames in the expansion draft. It's kinda simple really.

[Flamescuprun2018]

I guess my new thread was too close to this one so shutdown. Sorry about that. Moved my initial post over here to continue discussion:

Now that the Flames NHL/AHL roster basically set for rest of season post trade deadline. It would be interesting to see everyone's views on how things play out surrounding expansion draft.

7F-3D-1G protection seems the obvious choice for Treliving. Leaving us three question marks on who he will be protect beyond our core players:

7F: Gaudreau, Monahan, Bennett, Backlund, Frolik, X, X
3D: Giordano, Brodie, Hamilton
1G: X

Who are those three Xs?

Based on this who is then Las Vegas' best eligible option to select/sign from our NHL roster if they want to meet cap floor and be competitive?

or

Who is the best eligible option for LV to select/sign from our AHL roster if they want a prospect with highest ceiling?


My choices:

last 2 7F spots: Ferland, Lazar
1G spot: Elliott
Best NHL roster selection or UFA/RFA signing: Stajan
Best AHL roster selection or UFA/RFA signing: Shinkaruk

[Poe969]

Yes. Protect Ferland and Lazar and Elliot. Hope LV picks up one of Brouwer, Stajan or Bouma or signs Engelland. I thought no I'd prefer them to just take Stajan get his contract off the books.

[David Struch]

To Knights: Bouma to select Stajan
(perhaps throw in a couple of Poirier, Shinkaruk, Kulak or Wotherspoon as further enticement?)

[jayswin]

Wait, so we're trading the Knights an undesirable player to entice them to pick another undesirable player in the expansion draft? Am I reading that right?