[PGT] Where is the defense? Flames lose to Avs 6-3

[BigFlameDog]

Originally Posted by N-E-B

Who cares? I'd still take that year over a tank any day of the week. Last year was the best year to be a Flames fan in 11 years. McDavid be damned, last year was awesome and I'd do it all over again.

Plus...it looks like McDavid has week clavicles anyhow, who needs that crap bringing down the locker room.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by JJ1532

Because Hartley has gone from being the best coach in the league .

coaches get too much credit in the best of times, and too much critisism at the worst of times.

"Best coach in the NHL" ? I guess... a Jack Adams... but lets not pretend he's Scotty Bowman. He was playing against the "Best coach in the NHL" from the previous year last night. And there are tons of "Best coaches not in the NHL" out there too.

not sure when he'll go, but I don't think Hartley will be here for the entire length of his contract. Easier to just change coaches then change an entire roster.

[calgaryblood]

Originally Posted by adc

Isn't possible we need both?

Yeah it's possible but we haven't had trouble scoring in what 5 years? Keeping the puck out has been a problem since Kipper left and even last year it was a problem even with pretty good goaltending.

The passengers on this team need to go.

[sureLoss]

All the mojo seems to be stuck with Adirondack Thunder.

Scored 2 goals in the final 2 minutes to overcome a 2-0 deficit. Win in OT to extend their perfect season 7-0

[ScorchyScorch]

Really, trade the captain?

I'd rather replace the coach 3 times over.

[Buck Murdock]

Maybe the Flames need to learn the swarm...

[troutman]

Originally Posted by polak

Either way. I stand by my post. Hartley has to go.

Or maybe he is a better coach than we thought, getting this group into the playoffs?

[Huntingwhale]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

coaches get too much credit in the best of times, and too much critisism at the worst of times.

"Best coach in the NHL" ? I guess... a Jack Adams... but lets not pretend he's Scotty Bowman. He was playing against the "Best coach in the NHL" from the previous year last night. And there are tons of "Best coaches not in the NHL" out there too.

not sure when he'll go, but I don't think Hartley will be here for the entire length of his contract. Easier to just change coaches then change an entire roster.

Hartley needs to start sitting guys who aren't performing. I'm a big supporter of him and don't think firing him is the answer. So we bring in another guy and then what happens when the next guy loses the room 2 season later? The same crap that's been happening to this franchise since Sutter left. A rotating door of coaches.

I'm not normally one to question a coach's method. Any guy who can snag one of the 30 NHL head coaching jobs is one of the best in the world at it. But I can't for the life of me understand why a guy like Backlund isn't sitting. Firing the coach isn't the answer. Lighting a fire under some under-performers is. Some of the guys who signed contract extensions need to be made accountable.

Hockey is a weird and frustrating sport. For so long in the offseason, we think games are won on paper. We think putting certain players beside certain players will give us a point total because so-and-so is a set up man and so-and-so is a shooter. We think that having 3 LHD and 3 RHD gives us one of the best defences on paper. We think a 2nd exit means automatic improvement the next season.

Instead, after an offseason of joy and high expectations, the team ####s the bed with no end in sight. Hockey frustrates me to no end because of stuff like this.

I can only imagine what a guy like Hartley is feeling. 2 years of hard work, instilling accountability, hard work and everyone pulling the same direction and it seems to now be going out the window.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

FWIW the Avs commentators last night were extolling the virtues of Hartley, and the really good things he did in Colorado.

One note in particular: "Hartley is rarely outmaneuvered during a game. He makes the right reads on the situation and often out-coaches his opponent when it comes to in-game tactics."

His words, not mine, but I do tend to agree.

Whatever the reason for the struggles this year (my money is on poor goaltending resulting in overall terrible team confidence), it isn't because Hartley isn't good at his job.

[tvp2003]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

Hartley needs to start sitting guys who aren't performing. I'm a big supporter of him and don't think firing him is the answer. So we bring in another guy and then what happens when the next guy loses the room 2 season later? The same crap that's been happening to this franchise since Sutter left. A rotating door of coaches.

So all the goalies, every defenceman not named Brodie, and probably half the forwards?

[sureLoss]

Darren Haynes @DarrenWHaynes
Engelland has not been on for last 20 even-strength (or PK) goals Flames have given up. Perfect in his last 72:48 of ES ice time (5+ games).

Darren Haynes @DarrenWHaynes
Who has been on for last 20 ES/PK goals against, since Engelland's last (vs. NYR):
Russell, 11
Wideman, 10
Giordano, 8
Hamilton, 6
Brodie, 5

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

But I can't for the life of me understand why a guy like Backlund isn't sitting.

Let me attempt to answer that one.

1) Hartley is loyal to his veterans (sometimes to a fault, but not in this case). Backlund proved his worth the last two years for Hartley as a very good 3rd line center, and a capable 2nd line center.

2) Just because someone is struggling, you don't destroy their confidence without giving them a chance to respond. Dropping him to the 4th line reduces his responsibilities and ice time until he can figure his game out.

3) The team just invested 3 years in him, so benching him is a last resort when you're trying to get something out of a player who you believed enough in to give him that extension.

4) The other option is Derek Grant at the moment. While not a terrible short term option, he's not a long term option. Don't say Granlund because he's struggled at center compared to the wing. The only other farm option I would consider is Shore, and he hasn't exactly been exceptional in his time with the Flames.

Hartley has traditionally known what buttons to push with player to get their best possible performances. Right now the whole team is a mess, so it's hard for him to coach individual players enough to improve their game. He has to worry about an entire team of underperformers (Brodie, Gaudreau, and Bennett notwithstanding).

[Huntingwhale]

Originally Posted by tvp2003

So all the goalies, every defenceman not named Brodie, and probably half the forwards?

What's wrong with sitting players who aren't living up to expectations? It seemed to work the last couple seasons. Guys like Wideman, Gaudreau, Backlund, Jooris. All sat in the press box. All came back better players.

So yeah, every defenceman not named Brodie, and probably half the forwards should have a seat upstairs at some point.

[CroFlames]

I'm not against scratching players... but scratching Gio is not a wise move.

[Wiggum_PI]

Originally Posted by polak

Slept on it and I think Hartley has to go.

He obviously has no clue how to get the defensive side of the game together and the team is in absolute shambles. Yes, we should be blaming the players but

a) Treliving committed to this D-Core of Gio, Brodie and Hamilton. Mistake? Starting to look like it but we're stuck with it. We're not stuck with Hartley.

b) They aren't making big defensive gaffs that would lead you to believe their skill is gone. They're just being caught out of position. This is something you can coach... unless you're Hartley that is.

Face it guys. Last year appears to be a fluke on all fronts outside of Gaudreau and Brodie's performance. That fluke extends to Hartley's hype. He hasn't been able to improve any part of the team this season.

Quite a few people have suggested firing the coach, but who's available that's a way better coach then Hartley?

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

Hartley needs to start sitting guys who aren't performing.

Flames lines VS Flyers confirmed:

Gaudreau-Bennett-Jooris
Frolik-Bennett-Jooris
Granlund-Stajan-Jones
Agostino-Stajan-Wideman

Giordano-Brodie
Smid-Hamilton
Kulak-Engelland

Nick Schneider
Mason McDonald

[Drak]

Hartley has to go? Trade Gio? What?

This team is still in a rebuild. Last year was fantastic and the playoffs were gravy. The problem is, now people's expectations have skyrocketed into the stratosphere. We need to settle down and face the reality that there's still work to do, this team is young, and frantically hitting the panic button at this stage with these sorts of demands is not reasonable.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

What's wrong with sitting players who aren't living up to expectations? It seemed to work the last couple seasons. Guys like Wideman, Gaudreau, Backlund, Jooris. All sat in the press box. All came back better players.

So yeah, every defenceman not named Brodie, and probably half the forwards should have a seat upstairs at some point.

Was Backlund a healthy scratch last year? I don't remember.

How do you know sitting a player (Backlund) will help him instead of hurt him? Its not always a cut and dry "wake up call" that bench a guy = success.

[Huntingwhale]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Flames lines VS Flyers confirmed:

Gaudreau-Bennett-Jooris
Frolik-Bennett-Jooris
Granlund-Stajan-Jones
Agostino-Stajan-Wideman

Giordano-Brodie
Smid-Hamilton
Kulak-Engelland

Nick Schneider
Mason McDonald

Yes clearly that's what I meant. I meant sit them all at the same time

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

Originally Posted by sureLoss

Darren Haynes @DarrenWHaynes
Engelland has not been on for last 20 even-strength (or PK) goals Flames have given up. Perfect in his last 72:48 of ES ice time (5+ games).

Darren Haynes @DarrenWHaynes
Who has been on for last 20 ES/PK goals against, since Engelland's last (vs. NYR):
Russell, 11
Wideman, 10
Giordano, 8
Hamilton, 6
Brodie, 5

Pretty sure engelland was on for one of the late goals yesterday. Unless I'm misunderstanding the time of that tweet.

Still interesting though.