Flames at Pride reaction

[AcGold]

I support gay people's rights 100%

I am not in favor of large aspects of the gay movement.

It is beginning to demonstrate aspects of hierarchical social programming and the mob mentality that arises from such a thing is dangerous.

The idea that being against the gay movement is akin to being against womens suffrage is irreproachable, it is pure political correct rhetoric aiming straight at the guilt factor. No we're not guilty, we're pointing out the insanity of using emotional rhetorical arguments that aim to persuade without really looking into the higher aspects of the social movement logically.

It's possible to be for gay rights and against the movement you know, they are not one and the same.

[Traditional_Ale]

Originally Posted by AcGold

I support gay people's rights 100%

I am not in favor of large aspects of the gay movement.

It is beginning to demonstrate aspects of hierarchical social programming and the mob mentality that arises from such a thing is dangerous.

The idea that being against the gay movement is akin to being against womens suffrage is irreproachable, it is pure political correct rhetoric aiming straight at the guilt factor. No we're not guilty, we're pointing out the insanity of using emotional rhetorical arguments that aim to persuade without really looking into the higher aspects of the social movement logically.

It's possible to be for gay rights and against the movement you know, they are not one and the same.

Don't like gay people? Blame straight people!

They're the ones having gay babies.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by chid

It makes me sad to see people in our city be on the wrong side of history.. I wonder what textbooks will say when they talk about lgbtq issues in the future.

Very similar to how we view the civil rights era and the racism of those days. I imagine a lot of people back then would say things like are being said here of LGBT, citing often the bible to defend their stance against interracial marriage, segregation, etc..

Iceland's yearly pride parade attracts 90,000 people, in a country of 325,000 people. The capital area this represents more than half the population going to celebrate diversity, respect and acceptance.

But the elephant in the room in these discussion is the underlying reasons for why people are most often against pride parades or feel uncomfortable with them, their religious beliefs.

Thankfully its the religious in the US leading the charge towards acceptance, but we still have a long way to go in the world.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Thor

Very similar to how we view the civil rights era and the racism of those days. I imagine a lot of people back then would say things like are being said here of LGBT, citing often the bible to defend their stance against interracial marriage, segregation, etc..

Iceland's yearly pride parade attracts 90,000 people, in a country of 325,000 people. The capital area this represents more than half the population going to celebrate diversity, respect and acceptance.

But the elephant in the room in these discussion is the underlying reasons for why people are most often against pride parades or feel uncomfortable with them, their religious beliefs.

Thankfully its the religious in the US leading the charge towards acceptance, but we still have a long way to go in the world.

Really? I haven't been watching any gay parades lately but it wasn't long ago I remember the baptist bible thumpers lining the streets with their hate signs and anti gay chants.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by T@T

Really? I haven't been watching any gay parades lately but it wasn't long ago I remember the baptist bible thumpers lining the streets with their hate signs and anti gay chants.

The biggest change in the last 10 years in support for gay marriage for example is within Christians.

[Camronius]

Originally Posted by Minnie

I'm sorry you're too delicate to deal with the fact that calling a homophobe a homophobe is what should happen. Just like calling someone a racist when they're being effing racist is how it goes. Funny how you seemingly have no issue with that word, but oh golly gee whilikers, homophobe is the end of the bloody world. Please. Just please.

You can be wrong and not be a homophobe. If there was an anit-racism parade and someone was of the opinion the flames should stick to hockey and not associate themselves with the parade, that doesn't make them a racist. They could be forming false judgement or not thinking through things rationally... or they could just be formulating their own opinion, neither right nor wrong. There are many other options, however the one opinion, statement, or rationalization doesn't make them something else that they are not (racist, homophobic etc.)

There is a line that can be drawn somewhere. If the flames were to announce they were putting rainbows on their jerseys next season, I certainly would be against that. Does that make me a homophobe? It's more of an extreme example, and not a realistic example of something that we would expect to occur, but it does help to illustrate that one can be against a particular action for separate reasons aside from homphobia that may dictate a particular opinion. Personally I like that many flames participated in the parade today, but I was less enthusiastic of them changing their facebook logo to a rainbow photo. I can certainly respect why others might feel pride, and feel strongly about the promotion from the flames.... and I could even be swayed easily away from my current thought. I would feel the same way if there was another cause that changed the logo, or messed with he color scheme, irregardless of the cause it supported. I can say I don't love the pink thing the hitmen do. Although I understand it's importance, I get why others might be passionate about it. Does that mean I'm anti-cancer patients? Should I be called a homophobe or racist etc.... I don't think so..... and I think that's the point some of us are making.

Sometimes it's just ok for people to have differing opinions. It doesn't necessarily indicate some form of hate or negativity.

Get off the overstrung moral high horse and use reason and logic. People are over sensitive these days and it makes me sick.

[Serapth]

I am having trouble reconciling the seeming mindset of "you support the pride parade or you are a homophobe" against the handful of gay friends who range from dislike to outright hatred of the pride parades. Does that make them homophobic?


For the record I completely support gay rights, I support The Calgary Flames organization support. I also support the right for people to disagree and not be called a bigot or worse.

For the record, arguments against the pride parade, from gay people, tend to revolve around the hyper sexualization of the parade ( Google image search Toronto Pride 2015 and you will see this has merit... And is NSFW ), although I have also heard comments about gender politics within the gay community cited. I certainly dont understand it completely as I am not a oart of it all, but Ive heard from a few sources they view the parade as anti men.

Granted, this is Toronto, perhaps the dynamic is different in Calgary.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Serapth

I am having trouble reconciling the seeming mindset of "you support the pride parade or you are a homophobe" against the handful of gay friends who range from dislike to outright hatred of the pride parades. Does that make them homophobic?


For the record I completely support gay rights, I support The Calgary Flames organization support. I also support the right for people to disagree and not be called a bigot or worse.

For the record, arguments against the pride parade, from gay people, tend to revolve around the hyper sexualization of the parade ( Google image search Toronto Pride 2015 and you will see this has merit... And is NSFW ), although I have also heard comments about gender politics within the gay community cited. I certainly dont understand it completely as I am not a oart of it all, but Ive heard from a few sources they view the parade as anti men.

Granted, this is Toronto, perhaps the dynamic is different in Calgary.

I don't think people are saying you need to support it or you are a homophobe. What is offending some people is the criticism of supporting it. Why criticize the Flames for showing support?

I am fine if people aren't interested in the issue or showing support themselves, but just stay out of the way for the rest of us.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Camronius

You can be wrong and not be a homophobe. If there was an anit-racism parade and someone was of the opinion the flames should stick to hockey and not associate themselves with the parade, that doesn't make them a racist. They could be forming false judgement or not thinking through things rationally... or they could just be formulating their own opinion, neither right nor wrong. There are many other options, however the one opinion, statement, or rationalization doesn't make them something else that they are not (racist, homophobic etc.)

There is a line that can be drawn somewhere. If the flames were to announce they were putting rainbows on their jerseys next season, I certainly would be against that. Does that make me a homophobe? It's more of an extreme example, and not a realistic example of something that we would expect to occur, but it does help to illustrate that one can be against a particular action for separate reasons aside from homphobia that may dictate a particular opinion. Personally I like that many flames participated in the parade today, but I was less enthusiastic of them changing their facebook logo to a rainbow photo. I can certainly respect why others might feel pride, and feel strongly about the promotion from the flames.... and I could even be swayed easily away from my current thought. I would feel the same way if there was another cause that changed the logo, or messed with he color scheme, irregardless of the cause it supported. I can say I don't love the pink thing the hitmen do. Although I understand it's importance, I get why others might be passionate about it. Does that mean I'm anti-cancer patients? Should I be called a homophobe or racist etc.... I don't think so..... and I think that's the point some of us are making.

Sometimes it's just ok for people to have differing opinions. It doesn't necessarily indicate some form of hate or negativity.

Get off the overstrung moral high horse and use reason and logic. People are over sensitive these days and it makes me sick.

Your confusing the situation here. If the flames didn't participate, or if any individual doesn't participate in an anti-racism parade or pride parade that doesn't make them racist or homophobic. They might be but not participating in something doesn't really tell you anything.

If the flames chose to participate in an anti racism parade and people told them they shouldn't and should stick to hockey, while all the other community service they do is acceptable then yes the people who are saying they shouldn't participate would be racist.

The second point about jerseys, do you disagree with pink jerseys for breast cancer and pink NFL month? If so then your anti rainbow jersey position would be consistent and based on a reasonable argument. If you are okay with jerseys being modified for one cause but not others you have to evaluate what your motives are and they are likely based in homophobia. So in your case you are anti jersey modification for causes which is reasonable.

I think people are uncomfortable with the statement that if you think the flames should stick to hockey instead of March you are homophobic is that a lot of people with that opinion have come along way toward acceptance. They probably are okay with them getting married, and having sex behind closed doors and may think They could accept it if it wasn't flaunted in their face. I know lots of people who have made it this far (and it is a long way from the hate they started with) who wouldn't consider themselves homophobic. The flames Marching brings it to the forefront and makes them have to think about dudes kissing and bum sex and that makes them uncomfortable. That is homophobia.

If you have been to San Franciso their are billboards advertising Gay clubs the same way the Cowboys bill boards are here. And they have bus adds for gay wedding boutique stores. If that were in Calgary their would be protests over the billboards. So Calgary has a long way to go.

Saying the flames should stick to hockey is saying that you are uncomfortable with homosexuality being displayed in public.

[Serapth]

Originally Posted by GGG

Saying the flames should stick to hockey is saying that you are uncomfortable with homosexuality being displayed in public.

You can have this view completely ignoring the "gay" part of the gay pride parade.

There are many people, gays included, that dislike the sexuality of the parade. It most certainly doesn't make you a homophobe to conclude this.

[Looch City]

Did we not already conclude that the parade yesterday wasn't 'sexual' at all?

[Camronius]

Originally Posted by GGG

Your confusing the situation here. If the flames didn't participate, or if any individual doesn't participate in an anti-racism parade or pride parade that doesn't make them racist or homophobic. They might be but not participating in something doesn't really tell you anything.

If the flames chose to participate in an anti racism parade and people told them they shouldn't and should stick to hockey, while all the other community service they do is acceptable then yes the people who are saying they shouldn't participate would be racist.

The second point about jerseys, do you disagree with pink jerseys for breast cancer and pink NFL month? If so then your anti rainbow jersey position would be consistent and based on a reasonable argument. If you are okay with jerseys being modified for one cause but not others you have to evaluate what your motives are and they are likely based in homophobia. So in your case you are anti jersey modification for causes which is reasonable.

I think people are uncomfortable with the statement that if you think the flames should stick to hockey instead of March you are homophobic is that a lot of people with that opinion have come along way toward acceptance. They probably are okay with them getting married, and having sex behind closed doors and may think They could accept it if it wasn't flaunted in their face. I know lots of people who have made it this far (and it is a long way from the hate they started with) who wouldn't consider themselves homophobic. The flames Marching brings it to the forefront and makes them have to think about dudes kissing and bum sex and that makes them uncomfortable. That is homophobia.

If you have been to San Franciso their are billboards advertising Gay clubs the same way the Cowboys bill boards are here. And they have bus adds for gay wedding boutique stores. If that were in Calgary their would be protests over the billboards. So Calgary has a long way to go.

Saying the flames should stick to hockey is saying that you are uncomfortable with homosexuality being displayed in public.

I'm not sure how I portrayed that I'm confused about the issue. I'm very specific about what issue I'm talking about. I'm pretty sure that you didn't read my post, because I specifically address the pink hitmen jersey thing. So if you're picking 2 lines out of a couple of paragraphs and trying to respond to me, it doesn't really make for a productive conversation. That being said just because I don't like the modification for rainbows for one cause, but may be ok with a completely different alteration for a different cause does not equate to motives that are likely being homophic. That's an unfair conclusion and that's actually the crux of my point. People can have dissenting opinions for a variety of reasons, but because it's a sensitive topic people get overbearingly defensive and just assume hate is the motive.

FWIW I don't agree at all with your last statement on it's own. You're drawing the conclusion that because someone doesn't agree with your view, or someone else's view on this topic, then it's because they are homophobic.

[Minnie]

Bringing up Toronto's parade is irrelevant. Calgary's is in no way the same so it's a bit of a non-starter to try and compare the 2.

In terms of using the word homphobic, I'm not advocating its use with people who simply state they don't want the parade. In that aspect, I don't care, particularly if you just say you don't want it. I don't want a lot of things - might make me an idiot or you an idiot but that's not the same as homphobic. I'm for the use of the word to describe those who were posting the utter crap you may have seen on the Flames FB page. For the dooshnozzles who think it's ok to scream at my kid in the middle of the street. For the religious freaks in my family who would try to cast out the evil demon of homosexuality from my daughter. Plain and simple - they're homophobes and I see zero wrong with the use of the word homphobic to describe their actions, vernacular and behavior. And, as I said previously, if they take issue with that word, that's on them, no one else and frankly, I don't give a flying eff if they find it "insulting" or if it bothers them.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Camronius

FWIW I don't agree at all with your last statement on it's own. You're drawing the conclusion that because someone doesn't agree with your view, or someone else's view on this topic, then it's because they are homophobic.

What logical reasons can you think of why someone who be OK with the pink Hitmen jerseys but not OK with the Flames rainbow? (all things being equal)?

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

I think the problem with "opinions" such as the "Flames should just stick to hockey" or "I didn't like the logo change" or "I don't like when they do pink jerseys" is they aren't really opinions, but rather introductory statements that should be followed by the persons actual opinion.

Explain "why" you feel the Flames should stick to hockey, or "why" you don't like the rainbow branding on the web site, etc..... That would be having an opinion, and one that I agree doesn't necessarily have to conclude with one being homophobic etc... as there are potentially other reasons one might feel that way.

But what mostly happens in these types of discussions, is those making those types of statements never actually explain the why, or said another way, never really voice their actual opinion, all they voice is contempt or disagreement with what's going on. And rather than ever actually be forced to explain their position, or take the risk of having to explain how they feel, they degrade the conversation to one of "I have the right to a different opinion and aren't you oppressing me by being critical of my altering opinion" even though they've never actually had the guts to give or explain their real opinion or stance.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

This has to be one of the most painful-to-read threads I've ever seen here, the mental gymnastics by some just blows me away. So much typing and effort to tell people "I don't care", "Flames should stick to hockey", "They should just keep it to themselves, but I support their right to love who they want", "The parades are too sexual" and "I'm not a homophobe, but..." It's so easy to see through crap like this, you're basically insulting people's intelligence with this nonsense. I almost respect full blown bigots more than these fence-sitters/strawmen-makers/trolls... at least they will point blank say what they think instead of dancing around their insecurities, discomfort and, yes, hate. If you were truly apathetic about this issue, you wouldn't even open threads like these. There is NOTHING to debate here. If you have anything negative to say, keep it to yourself or at least don't be shocked when others call you a homophobe when you parrot your sad talking points. Being called a homophobe isn't a personal attack if it's true. Why should everyone use kid's gloves when dealing with bigotry when it's the bigot initiating the 'debate'? Sometimes the truth hurts, deal with it.

[Antithesis]

"It's not natural" has to be one of the funniest BS excuses people can come up with regarding their discomfort with homosexuality. Like come on. What do you say about all of the other homosexual behavior demonstrated by other animals species, you know ... in nature? What do you say about the Bonobo, one of the great apes (of which we are also one), a species where homosexual/bisexual behavior is not just observed, but common?

And I'm usually one for the 'welcoming hand' approach to trying to change people's minds, but at this point, if you're STILL making yourself feel better by saying things like "it's not natural", or "I have a gay friend but ..." or "The Flames should just stick to hockey", you are wrong. There are wrong opinions. Homophobia is one of them.

[Patek23]

Originally Posted by Antithesis

"It's not natural" has to be one of the funniest BS excuses people can come up with regarding their discomfort with homosexuality. Like come on. What do you say about all of the other homosexual behavior demonstrated by other animals species, you know ... in nature? What do you say about the Bonobo, one of the great apes (of which we are also one), a species where homosexual/bisexual behavior is not just observed, but common?

And I'm usually one for the 'welcoming hand' approach to trying to change people's minds, but at this point, if you're STILL making yourself feel better by saying things like "it's not natural", or "I have a gay friend but ..." or "The Flames should just stick to hockey", you are wrong. There are wrong opinions. Homophobia is one of them.

I can see that this post was directed at me. And you are more than welcome to be entitled to your opinion as I am too mine. I already stated previously that I feel people should be able to live their lives how they want and without discrimination. I'm unsure how my personal misgivings about such activities is considered discriminatory by your standards. Nor is the issue one I care enough about to debate you with further. I look at it more like there are people who choose to dress goth or grunge. Do I ever want to dress like that or live that lifestyle? Nope. Do I think they should be judged or oppressed for that lifestyle choice? Nope. Does this make me a gothophobe? If you can't see where there is that disconnect than I cant help you. Good day.

Edit- and BTW I'm for the Flames being in the parade. I think it helps bring awareness and hopefully will help end a lot of the judgement that goes on for those in the LGBT community. But people who compare it too the breast cancer awareness are making a stretch. One is a current social issue that could be seen as a statement by the team, some people may not care for teams making political or social statements regardless of their belief on the issue. Breast cancer awareness is to raise money for a disease that in some way or another unfortunately affects most people's families. I would not consider being LGBT comparable to a disease and I don't think the people in that community would think that either.

[Serapth]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I don't think people are saying you need to support it or you are a homophobe.

Here is a shining example just seconds later:

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

This has to be one of the most painful-to-read threads I've ever seen here, the mental gymnastics by some just blows me away. So much typing and effort to tell people "I don't care", "Flames should stick to hockey", "They should just keep it to themselves, but I support their right to love who they want", "The parades are too sexual" and "I'm not a homophobe, but..." It's so easy to see through crap like this, you're basically insulting people's intelligence with this nonsense. I almost respect full blown bigots more than these fence-sitters/strawmen-makers/trolls... at least they will point blank say what they think instead of dancing around their insecurities, discomfort and, yes, hate. If you were truly apathetic about this issue, you wouldn't even open threads like these. There is NOTHING to debate here. If you have anything negative to say, keep it to yourself or at least don't be shocked when others call you a homophobe when you parrot your sad talking points. Being called a homophobe isn't a personal attack if it's true. Why should everyone use kid's gloves when dealing with bigotry when it's the bigot initiating the 'debate'? Sometimes the truth hurts, deal with it.

Which is basically someone doing exactly that.

That is the problem with these kinds of conversations, when one side is full of people with the argument "you either agree or you are a bigot" and the other side actually has a lot of bigots, the internet doesn't have the nuance to have any sort of meaningful conversation.

[Serapth]

Originally Posted by Minnie

Bringing up Toronto's parade is irrelevant. Calgary's is in no way the same so it's a bit of a non-starter to try and compare the 2.

In terms of using the word homphobic, I'm not advocating its use with people who simply state they don't want the parade. In that aspect, I don't care, particularly if you just say you don't want it. I don't want a lot of things - might make me an idiot or you an idiot but that's not the same as homphobic. I'm for the use of the word to describe those who were posting the utter crap you may have seen on the Flames FB page. For the dooshnozzles who think it's ok to scream at my kid in the middle of the street. For the religious freaks in my family who would try to cast out the evil demon of homosexuality from my daughter. Plain and simple - they're homophobes and I see zero wrong with the use of the word homphobic to describe their actions, vernacular and behavior. And, as I said previously, if they take issue with that word, that's on them, no one else and frankly, I don't give a flying eff if they find it "insulting" or if it bothers them.

I brought up Toronto because as I said:

Granted, this is Toronto, perhaps the dynamic is different in Calgary.