Flames goaltending is killing our chances at McDavid/Eichel/Hanifin: Discuss

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

The thing is, Toews didn't change the culture in Chicago. And there was a culture, and it needed to be changed.

What changed the culture in Chicago was the death of William Wadsworth 'Dollar Bill' Wirtz. The man had antagonized the whole city, driven away thousands of paying customers, and consequently had to cheap out on every part of the hockey operation, including player salaries. When Rocky Wirtz inherited the team, he opened his wallet and won back the fans.

Bill Wirtz died on September 26, 2007. Jonathan Toews played his first NHL game on October 10. On October 22, Rocky Wirtz announced that for the first time, the Blackhawks were going to allow their home games to be broadcast on local TV, and that he had opened negotiations with Comcast. The culture change was dramatic throughout the whole organization, from top to bottom. Toews had the enormous good luck to walk in just as the change was happening.

You are right that the change of management had a big impact. I think its safe to say that the change of coach had an impact as well. As did Toews.

The point - your point really - is that the winning culture isn't just a case of getting a couple good players. It also takes good management, good coaches, etc.

The Flames have better management in place now, IMO. I also like the coach.

IMO, it's a lot easier to maintain a good culture, than trying to flip a switch and find it at some designated point in the future.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

The point - your point really - is that the winning culture isn't just a case of getting a couple good players. It also takes good management, good coaches, etc.

And it all begins with a good owner. Which is why Edmonton is no good. Maybe somebody ought to start a thread about that.

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

You are right that the change of management had a big impact. I think its safe to say that the change of coach had an impact as well. As did Toews.

The point - your point really - is that the winning culture isn't just a case of getting a couple good players. It also takes good management, good coaches, etc.

The Flames have better management in place now, IMO. I also like the coach.

IMO, it's a lot easier to maintain a good culture, than trying to flip a switch and find it at some designated point in the future.

I don't think anyone is suggesting we change the culture. Posters are simply stating that this idea that placing a few spots lower in the standings will somehow infect the team with a losing culture is false. Also realizing that the superior player drafted earlier will likely have a much greater positive impact for the clubs future than placing a few spots higher and counting on the "winning culture" to make some significant impact. Also before someone starts going off about tanking no one is suggesting we tank.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Hackey

I don't think anyone is suggesting we change the culture. Posters are simply stating that this idea that placing a few spots lower in the standings will somehow infect the team with a losing culture is false. Also realizing that the superior player drafted earlier will likely have a much greater positive impact for the clubs future than placing a few spots higher and counting on the "winning culture" to make some significant impact. Also before someone starts going off about tanking no one is suggesting we tank.

So how do you suggest they move a few spots lower in the standings?

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

It seems like some people are arguing that a top 3 pic is probably going to be better than an 8-10 pick. Well duh. That isn't up for dispute.

The issue though is it worth the trade off?

I look at the growth of Brodie, Backlund, Bouma and others, and I am thankful they are not playing in a more loser-ish environment (for lack of a better word). Would Brodie be as good as he is if the Flames sucked? No one knows of course. But not having Giordano here would definitely make the team worse, and I think it's safe to say that Brodie wouldn't have developed as much as he has if Gio wasn't here.

THAT'S the argument. That's the cost. Obviously a top pick has good chance of being a better player than a later pick. The question is: what is the cost to the other prospects of sucking enough to get that pick?

Well its not like its about its a 90 point team vs a 60 point team, what it probably comes down to is probably like 3 wins. Now I'm not saying to throw a game to get those 3 extra losses, but do I think 3 more losses over 82 games, or even multiple years maybe 240 games, will make the difference between a "winning" culture and being lost in purgatory?

not really

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

Well its not like its about its a 90 point team vs a 60 point team, what it probably comes down to is probably like 3 wins. Now I'm not saying to throw a game to get those 3 extra losses, but do I think 3 more losses over 82 games, or even multiple years maybe 240 games, will make the difference between a "winning" culture and being lost in purgatory?

not really

Based on last year, 3 more losses wouldn't change their standings at all.

They were 10 pts ahead of the Oilers and 25 pts ahead of the Sabres

And they are looking like they could well be a better team this year. And several other teams look like they might be substantially worse.

Moving down 2 or 3 spots in the standings would probably require getting less than 65 pts. They will probably get much closer to 85 than 65

[Phanuthier]

Holy crap I didn't realize the Oilers sucked so bad.... damn never mind.

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

So how do you suggest they move a few spots lower in the standings?

I'm not suggesting we move a few spots intentionally but I'm also not going to act like landing a top 3 pick is somehow detremental to the teams future. I'm not going to act like winning 3-4 extra games a year is somehow drastically changing our culture either.

[Enoch Root]

That's the thing - were not talking about a couple losses over 82 games here. For the Flames to finish 29th or 30th, they would probably have to be 20-25 pts worse than they are going to be.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

That's the thing - were not talking about a couple losses over 82 games here. For the Flames to finish 29th or 30th, they would probably have to be 20-25 pts worse than they are going to be.

Ya lol ok thats true, I'm cool with something like last year...4th.... I don't want total embarrassment suckage, just not a gonna find a lot of solace in things like loser points or anything.

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

That's the thing - were not talking about a couple losses over 82 games here. For the Flames to finish 29th or 30th, they would probably have to be 20-25 pts worse than they are going to be.

4-5 wins can be the difference between Hanifin and whoever else or Bennett and whoever else. Monahan and whoever else. The difference between being part of the top tier of the draft and the second tier of the draft. The superior talent definitely outweighs a few extra wins in my opinion. Again not saying we intentionally lose but giving a bit of perspective.

[BigRed]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

That's the thing - were not talking about a couple losses over 82 games here. For the Flames to finish 29th or 30th, they would probably have to be 20-25 pts worse than they are going to be.

Last year the Flames were 11 points out of 29th and 10 points out of 28th.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by BigRed

Last year the Flames were 11 points out of 29th and 10 points out of 28th.

Yes, I was referring to what I think it will be this year because a) the Flames could be somewhat better and b) some teams look horrible.

It's obviously very early, but EDM, CAR and BUF are a combined 2-12-3 so far

[MikeN]

This is game 8/82. lots of time for things to get worse.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Hackey

4-5 wins can be the difference between Hanifin and whoever else or Bennett and whoever else. Monahan and whoever else. The difference between being part of the top tier of the draft and the second tier of the draft. The superior talent definitely outweighs a few extra wins in my opinion. Again not saying we intentionally lose but giving a bit of perspective.

We all know how the standings work.

You keep saying that an earlier pick is better than a later pick, but you don't have any suggestions on how they drop a few games, or even if they should.

So what's your point? That the 3rd pick is better than the 4th pick? Thanks!

[badger89]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

So how do you suggest they move a few spots lower in the standings?

Easy. Setoguchi and Diaz back in. Maybe Bollig as well for good measure. Why were these guys signed if not to tank?

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by badger89

Easy. Setoguchi and Diaz back in. Maybe Bollig as well for good measure. Why were these guys signed if not to tank?

Clearly they were signed to tank, because it's not like they're hockey players or anything. Obviously the plan is to play Diaz on the top defence pairing, call up some scrub from the minors to play 25 minutes a night with him, and then banish Giordano and Brodie to the press box. And above all, re-sign Joey MacDonald or someone even worse to play the majority of games, and whatever you do, don't get an actual NHL-calibre goalie like Hiller. If you've got bad defence and bad goaltending, you can tank to your heart's content.

Oh, wait, they're not doing any of that.

Apparently the management had something else in mind.

[GettinIggyWithIt]

Originally Posted by BigRed

Last year the Flames were 11 points out of 29th and 10 points out of 28th.

I know you were responding to a post about the Flames needing to be 25 points worse to be in the bottom 3 but to put this in perspective, they were also only 14 points out of a playoff spot so that 10 and 11 point difference is arguably not much different from being in a playoff spot. This is not to say that I think they could have been a playoff team last year - just that they were just as unlikely to be bottom 3 bad as they were a playoff team.

[firecenter]

The scary part is we still have a ton of games against the east

[questionmotives]

I'm not sure I understand the vitriol towards the OP. He simply asked for it to be discussed, and frankly, it's a conversation that will inevitably come up this season IF the trend continues - that is, the Flames ride hot goaltending to just miss out on a chance at the lottery.

It's all hypothetical.

I don't believe that tanking actually exists. But if McDavid is the generational player that scouts are speculating him to be, than it would be a shame to miss out on the chance at nabbing him. I know it's the NFL, but I watched my Colts accidentally stumble to a 2 - 14 record and somehow land Andrew Luck a few years ago. What a different story it would have been had they finished 4 - 10 that season.