[Signing] Flames Sign Devin Setoguchi to one year 750k deal.

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by T@T

No, it isn't that simple. if it was David Jones, TJ Galiardi or Joe Colburne would have spent time in Abby last year.

Exactly. Economists often use professional sports as an example of how easy it is not to recognize a sunk cost. Its a tough pill to swallow to expose a player to waives and/or pay them as an depreciated asset that became worthless. GMs and owners are people too.

[browntrout]

would love to see an advance stat on the success of drafting for this organization...sure its dead last in the league

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

Ok fine.

Then what? More Tim Erixons - players who won't sign and demand to traded? Have an organization with a reputation that no rookie stands a chance?

Hockey is about players. I'm not sure how well versed you are in human resources, but an organization has to adjust to the labour market. Similiar to the relationship between specialists and hospitals, hockey clubs are not competitive without talent. Hockey is leaning towards ELC contracts and bridge contracts, which allows a club to be deep under the cap. With a changing labour climate in hockey, good organizations have to obtain and retain good young talent.

I don't think Erixon is a good example. It sure seemed like the flames were willing to give him a very good chance at making the team if he did not ask for trade. Personally I thought Reggie was going to be traded either way. With Erixon not signing they needed to get a young d-man back in trade as part of the deal (Butler). Granted the scouts and management sort of dropped the ball on thinking Butler was the man and Tim dropped the ball thinking he had a better chance making the Rangers.

Yes there has been many years that I rather have had young prospects playing instead of the country club gang , but looking back at it management was right. How many of those prospects went onto be good Nhl players? The sad truth was that our prospects of yesteryears sucked.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by browntrout

would love to see an advance stat on the success of drafting for this organization...sure its dead last in the league

Completely off topic. Either add something on topic or stop posting in this thread

[Chill Cosby]

I get that people want to argue for the sake of arguing, but I'm a bit confused, so I turned to trusty math.

With Gooch and Bouma signed (he hasn't yet, but he will), assuming everyone currently signed with the big club is not sent down to Abby, the Flames have 13 forwards:
1.Hudler, Jiri
2.Jones, David
3.Raymond, Mason
4.Stajan, Matt
5.Glencross, Curtis
6.Backlund, Mikael
7.Colborne, Joe
8.Bollig, Brandon
9.Monahan, Sean
10.McGrattan, Brian
11.Byron, Paul
12.Bouma, Lance
13.Setoguchi, Devin

The Flames also have 6 defencemen, and 2 goalies:
1.Giordano, Mark
2.Brodie, TJ
3.Wideman, Dennis
4.Russel, Kris
5.Smid, Ladislav
6.Engellend, Derek

1.Hiller, Jonas
2.Ramo, Kari

I'm not great at math, but I think 13 + 6 + 2 = 21 (if we have a mathematician here they can check it for me).

NHL teams must present a 23-man roster at the beginning of the season. So further calculations suggest that 23 - 21 = ....2.

Interesting. Now, where does that 2 come from? Well, most teams have 2 goaltenders to start, so not there. However, almost all teams have 14 forwards and 7 defencemen at the start of the season.

So 14 - 13 = 1, and 7 - 6 = 1, and 1 + 1 = 2, so that's where we get the 2.

So I guess what all that math has shown is... people who complain about Gooch taking a spot are being weird, there is literally one completely open and un-contended for roster spot available.

I'm sure one of Gaudreau, Baertschi, Granlund, or Bennett will be able to play better than the absolutely-no-one who currently has that spot.

At least I would hope.

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by kyuss275

I don't think Erixon is a good example. It sure seemed like the flames were willing to give him a very good chance at making the team if he did not ask for trade. Personally I thought Reggie was going to be traded either way. With Erixon not signing they needed to get a young d-man back in trade as part of the deal (Butler). Granted the scouts and management sort of dropped the ball on thinking Butler was the man and Tim dropped the ball thinking he had a better chance making the Rangers.

Yes there has been many years that I rather have had young prospects playing instead of the country club gang , but looking back at it management was right. How many of those prospects went onto be good Nhl players? The sad truth was that our prospects of yesteryears sucked.

Fair enough.

I'm particularly disappointed in Setoguchi. He's widely considered a lazy player, who shouldn't be a signing from an organization that wants the identity of being hard working. I think he's a bad influence, and given the message from management that its better to incubate prospects, I have a feeling it won't be a competitive training camp when destinies are already foreseen for our prospects.

[Phil Russell]

Flames did a great job of working youngsters into the lineup last year IMO. There are spots open, injuries will happen, marginal vets will sit. Not at all worried about DS taking a roster spot from a kid.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

Fair enough.

I'm particularly disappointed in Setoguchi. He's widely considered a lazy player, who shouldn't be a signing from an organization that wants the identity of being hard working. I think he's a bad influence, and given the message from management that its better to incubate prospects, I have a feeling it won't be a competitive training camp when destinies are already foreseen for our prospects.

This is a consideration given by some fans, but not necessarily other players and team management. Besides, he either proves himself for his next contract or he's likely done. It's not like he won the lottery and got a big payday.

[wingmaker]

So much overreaction in this thread.

1) As has been pointed out, there is still a spot on defence and a spot at forward open for a rookie right now.

2) Do people remember last year? Monahan, Glencross, Hudler, Jones, Cammalleri, Giordano, Russell, Stajan (personal reasons)...all injured, and for long stretches of time. Plus, Galliardi was healthy scratched. There will be plenty of spots for young players to slot in.

3) Of the 13 forwards signed, 1 is Paul Byron who is anything but a lock to play the full season on the Flames, 1 is Setoguchi who is signed for under a million and has clearly been given a "show me" type contract (just like Galiardi who they were not afraid to bench), 3 are Bouma/McGrattan/Bolig...the type of player that Hartley has shown a propensity to sit from time to time, 1 is Joe Colborne who has shown promise but still has a lot to prove, and 1 is David Jones who the coaching staff has moved up and down the line up depending on how other players are playing. In other words, only about half the forwards are even players that you could consider "locks" to make the team and stick with it through the entire season.

Looking at the above points, this looks like anything but a roster set in stone and more like a roster yet to be defined. Setoguchi is one more option on a team that doesn't have a lot of proven options. There are going to be plenty of opportunities for young players. Let's see how it plays out.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by ricosuave

It's an extremely low-risk, high-upside kind of signing.

For those who think he's stealing a spot from a younger guy, well, you just don't understand, plain and simple.

don't understand what?

Upon reflection, seems like a move to pick up a draft pick at the deadline and provide depth upon event of injury, that's fine. I actually think Gaudreau will play his way onto the roster anyway, so no big deal. Bennett is going to get sent down.

But next season, the one following this one, if Calgary ends up picking up a McDavid or Eichel who may be NHL ready right out of the draft, then with Bennett probably ready to go after a year back in the minors (at least for the A), I'm not sure I want to see a bunch of Setoguchi signings.

And for the love of god stop referring to him as "gooch".

[GirlySports]

we need depth to make the playoffs.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by kyuss275

Agree that it looks like a tank job and that Hartely has a hard job this year.

Kinda disagree that the over 30 players are near the end of their careers. Most of them are pretty close to 30 and still have many years left if they can play well. Being 30 is not even close to players that are 35+.

As for Hiller signing I think it was more for the 2015/2016 season when hopefully Ortio is ready for full time in the NHL . Ortio will need a seasoned vet to lean on. Ramo has his work cut out for him this year. I think in order to be re-signed he will need to show that he is a true 1a starter. Even a 1b showing probably won't get him re-signed because they will have Hiller and hopefully Ortio.

LA Kings SC Champs

5 Players over 30 last year Gaborik (32), Stoll (32) Williams (32) Regehr (33) and Greene (31)

8 Under 25 - Toffoli, Pearson. Clifford, King, Nolan, Doughty, Muzzin and Voynov



Hawks

6 over 30 Handzuz (37), Sharp (32), Hossa (35), Keith (30), Oduya (31) Roszival (35)

6 under 25 Shaw, Saad, Kruger, Morrin, Leddy and Runblad and Kane just turned 25


Rangers over 30 3: St.Louis (37), Richards (34), Dominic Moore (34)

Under 25 5: Krieder, Stephan, Hagelin, McDonagh, John Moore


There are some guys that defy aging and play well past 30 but it is pretty clear that the skills and roles of 90% of the players are in decline once they hit their 30th Birthday...

Maybe it is motivation--- most NHL players should have a couple of million in the bank by the time that they are 30 and have more options outside of Hockey than guys who might have to go to work with limited skills in the real world.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

we need depth to make the playoffs.

This post was a joke, I'm well aware. In all seriousness though, we need depth to not tank like the Oilers.

The Flames want to keep games competitive and build on their hardworking identity. Some level of depth is needed to achieve that. If there are 2 rookies penciled into the line-up with a healthy roster come training camp, a joke of a team is what we can expect.

Injuries happen early and often, especially if D. Jones remains on our team. We will see Baertchi, Gaudreau, Poirier, Wotherspoon and Granlund at some point this season. It's all but guaranteed.

[Enoch Root]

Flames have one of the smallest and weakest rosters in the NHL. And they are barely over the salary floor. And they only have 46 contracts (with 4 sliders, so really 42).

So they sign a player who:

is a regular 20 goal scorer
is 27 years old (a good age)
has good size
plays our weakest position
wants to re-establish his career
signed for one year
at close to the league minimum
is a free asset
is a possible trade candidate at the deadline

Conclusion: many fans are upset

[Racki]

I know it's been said already in different words but I think it's pretty obvious what this year is about. Let our kids dominate in the AHL and then spot them all into the NHL lineup when injuries arise.

I have little doubt that we will see ALL of our kids play for the Flames this year but I doubt that there will be a bunch of them here all at once and probably none of them on opening night.

It's gonna be a "lost year" in my opinion. Probably the last one though.

[Mr.Coffee]

He's 6'0 (so okay for size but not huge or anything) and hasn't scored 20 goals in 4 years. More importantly he's looked pretty average since leaving San Jose so let's not think this is something it isn't. The contract is really great, I admit he probably will put in 15-20 maybe if he stays healthy, he's a NHLer. But I think you're just seeing one less hole for a lot of our terrific prospects that fans are very excited to see crack the squad. That's all. So fans are voicing disappointment because they are excited for the future, something this guy obviously is not penciled in for at this point.

There's a reason he was a UFA on August 22.

[Enoch Root]

As for those that are worried about the kids not getting a chance...

There are 13 'vets' (incuding Monahan, Colborne, Bouma and Backlund) on the roster.

Since there are 14 roster spots, that leaves one open.

However, that assumes no injuries. In the 2012 season, teams averaged 225 man-games lost to injury (I will assume that is relatively typical of most years).

Forwards constitute about 2/3rds of the roster (14/23s usually). That means that, on average, teams lost 137 man-games to forwards that year. That works out to 1.67 players per game.

The Flames are pretty small and play in the big, physical western conference. That also means extra travel, which also contributes to injures. So we can probably assume more injuries than average (last year they had over 300).

So let's assume 2 forwards per game.

That means that - even without beating out any vets for jobs - there are 3 - THREE - available forward positions for rookies on a nightly basis.

With 82 games, that equates to something in the neighbourhood of 240 games available for rookies.

Even if the rookies were always the ones in the pressbox (extremely unlikely), that would leave 82 available man-games to be divvied up among them.

And these numbers don't factor in any deadline trades. It is probably safe to assume that at least 2 players will be traded at, or before the deadline. That means at least 2 more spots open for every game for the last 2 months (3 to 5 spots, depending who is in the pressbox).

Worrying about the kids getting a chance is the emptiest (and silliest) thing to be worried about, IMO.

[wingmaker]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

He's 6'0 (so okay for size but not huge or anything) and hasn't scored 20 goals in 4 years. More importantly he's looked pretty average since leaving San Jose so let's not think this is something it isn't. The contract is really great, I admit he probably will put in 15-20 maybe if he stays healthy, he's a NHLer. But I think you're just seeing one less hole for a lot of our terrific prospects that fans are very excited to see crack the squad. That's all. So fans are voicing disappointment because they are excited for the future, something this guy obviously is not penciled in for at this point.

There's a reason he was a UFA on August 22.

If he's as bad as you say, he will be given the Galliardi treatment from this coaching staff. I mean, Paul Byron beat out Galliardi for a spot last year. So either he will come in and out perform what he has been the last couple years, or he will be on the fringes of the team and will not be taking space from anyone. They may give him some time at the beginning to see if he can put it together, but I don't believe he will be given ice time throughout the year if he does not perform.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

He's 6'0 (so okay for size but not huge or anything) and hasn't scored 20 goals in 4 years. More importantly he's looked pretty average since leaving San Jose so let's not think this is something it isn't. The contract is really great, I admit he probably will put in 15-20 maybe if he stays healthy, he's a NHLer. But I think you're just seeing one less hole for a lot of our terrific prospects that fans are very excited to see crack the squad. That's all. So fans are voicing disappointment because they are excited for the future, something this guy obviously is not penciled in for at this point.

There's a reason he was a UFA on August 22.

10/11: 19G in 72 games (sure, not 20 goals)
12/13: 12G in 48 games (20 goal pace)

So one season where he wasn't a 20 goal guy.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by wingmaker

If he's as bad as you say, he will be given the Galliardi treatment from this coaching staff. I mean, Paul Byron beat out Galliardi for a spot last year. So either he will come in and out perform what he has been the last couple years, or he will be on the fringes of the team and will not be taking space from anyone. They may give him some time at the beginning to see if he can put it together, but I don't believe he will be given ice time throughout the year if he does not perform.

That's fair enough.