[News] Flames finish 4th last in the NHL for the 2013-2014 season

[Jacks]

Originally Posted by Crumpy-Gunt

Why? Because you know Dal Colle and Draisatl / Perlini / Virtanen are better picks, better players with a higher ceiling or...ISS?

Are you his agent or something?

[Five-hole]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Well the way the conversation went people were writing him off due to being slightly overweight while assuming everything would go just fine with the underweight prospects. Which made

His size raises two red flags for me. They're not deal-breakers but they're also not present with most other prospects in the 3-7 range. I suspect this is where many other people are coming from, too.

These are:
1) Not all players with conditioning problems just "figure it out". See Byfuglien, Penner, Howse, Cundari
2) A player so much more physically mature than others at his age may give him an unfair advantage in junior that may not be there in the NHL.

With the latter, I admit to having similar reservations about Ekblad. It's one thing to dominate guys when you're 20 or 30 or 50 lbs heavier than them. It's another when you're no longer the biggest player on the ice. How much of their game is merely a result of their being able to physically dominate those around them? If this physical domination doesn't translate to the NHL, will they be effective?

You'd expect that players rated in the top tier are probably not those that scouts are really concerned about re: this issues, but it's not surprising that fans are apprehensive about it, especially when there are other guys in the same area that don't have these red flags.

[4oh3]

Man gagner was a failure eh

[dying4acup]

Originally Posted by Yoho

[/B]

And virtually impossible. No one wants our spare parts for a top 3 pick

I wouldn't call any of those things spare parts. I am excited about any or all of those players potential. And a 2nd round pick is an asset, regardless. I appreciate that you may value the players less, but I don't consider any of them spare parts. I could see any number, if not all of those players spending time in the NHL next season.

[Miniac]

Originally Posted by 4oh3

Man gagner was a failure eh

Spoiler!

I still think he should have been traded after that night lol - Edmonton is No Good.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Five-hole

His size raises two red flags for me. They're not deal-breakers but they're also not present with most other prospects in the 3-7 range. I suspect this is where many other people are coming from, too.

These are:
1) Not all players with conditioning problems just "figure it out". See Byfuglien, Penner, Howse, Cundari
2) A player so much more physically mature than others at his age may give him an unfair advantage in junior that may not be there in the NHL.

With the latter, I admit to having similar reservations about Ekblad. It's one thing to dominate guys when you're 20 or 30 or 50 lbs heavier than them. It's another when you're no longer the biggest player on the ice. How much of their game is merely a result of their being able to physically dominate those around them? If this physical domination doesn't translate to the NHL, will they be effective?

You'd expect that players rated in the top tier are probably not those that scouts are really concerned about re: this issues, but it's not surprising that fans are apprehensive about it, especially when there are other guys in the same area that don't have these red flags.

I've seen this argument a few times and I can't really buy into it.

Is Ekblad scoring 20+ goals because of his size? Is he making Canada's top 4 as a draft eligible player strictly because of his size? His size is a positive attributes of his just like shot and just like his physical play. This positive attribute does not go away when he joins a league with a slightly bigger average height/weight.

Do we equally worry about Reinhart not being able to translate his hockey sense advantage at a higher level where the average hockey sense is higher? Not really I don't think.

Do we equally worry about Bennett not being able to translate his shot, speed, etc at a higher level where players on average shoot harder and skate faster? Nope.

So why do we think size wouldn't translate? Makes no sense to me. If a guy is a beast in junior he should be a beast in the NHL. If his size/strength edge is huge in junior then it's still going to be significant in the NHL. Ekblad is much bigger than guys like Backlund, Glencross, Cammalleri, etc. He should be able to physically overpower most of our forwards.

I think where there should be concern is when a small guy is a really physical player and you wonder if that will translate because he's actually below average in size. Gilbert Brule was seen as a powerforward in his draft year and he went very high but he was only 5'10 180ish and his style was dangerous and somewhat ineffective at his size.

But if you've got a huge guy who's a physical player? Great! Instead of worrying if it will translate I'm drooling at the thought of him physically dominating the NHL for the Flames. I don't see this as a red flag at all and am somewhat bewildered why anybody would. We're looking for big, physical players, we shouldn't be paranoid that they are overrated because of their size. Scouts are taking all these factors into account. Ekblad is more than just a big defenseman, it's the sum of his attributes that make him the prospect he is. His size should be attractive to the Flames with our lack of size in the top 4, it shouldn't be worrying.

And if Ritchie ends up being the type of player who carries 5-10 lbs extra I don't even think that's the end of the world with his style of play. Those extra pounds can make him even harder to move in front the net, knock off the puck, etc. As long as his skating isn't very adversely affected a tad extra weight is not the end of the world. Ove isn't the slimmest lad either and it doesn't seem to drag him down.

[Yrebmi]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

I've seen this argument a few times and I can't really buy into it.

Is Ekblad scoring 20+ goals because of his size? Is he making Canada's top 4 as a draft eligible player strictly because of his size? His size is a positive attributes of his just like shot and just like his physical play. This positive attribute does not go away when he joins a league with a slightly bigger average height/weight.

Do we equally worry about Reinhart not being able to translate his hockey sense advantage at a higher level where the average hockey sense is higher? Not really I don't think.

Do we equally worry about Bennett not being able to translate his shot, speed, etc at a higher level where players on average shoot harder and skate faster? Nope.

So why do we think size wouldn't translate? Makes no sense to me. If a guy is a beast in junior he should be a beast in the NHL. If his size/strength edge is huge in junior then it's still going to be significant in the NHL. Ekblad is much bigger than guys like Backlund, Glencross, Cammalleri, etc. He should be able to physically overpower most of our forwards.

I think where there should be concern is when a small guy is a really physical player and you wonder if that will translate because he's actually below average in size. Gilbert Brule was seen as a powerforward in his draft year and he went very high but he was only 5'10 180ish and his style was dangerous and somewhat ineffective at his size.

But if you've got a huge guy who's a physical player? Great! Instead of worrying if it will translate I'm drooling at the thought of him physically dominating the NHL for the Flames. I don't see this as a red flag at all and am somewhat bewildered why anybody would. We're looking for big, physical players, we shouldn't be paranoid that they are overrated because of their size. Scouts are taking all these factors into account. Ekblad is more than just a big defenseman, it's the sum of his attributes that make him the prospect he is. His size should be attractive to the Flames with our lack of size in the top 4, it shouldn't be worrying.

And if Ritchie ends up being the type of player who carries 5-10 lbs extra I don't even think that's the end of the world with his style of play. Those extra pounds can make him even harder to move in front the net, knock off the puck, etc. As long as his skating isn't very adversely affected a tad extra weight is not the end of the world. Ove isn't the slimmest lad either and it doesn't seem to drag him down.

Huge fan of your posts/insights man. However I must respectfully counter that the average NHLer will be bigger than the average opponents he is used to. One of the most compelling arguements in Graudeau ability to translate his game is that he is aleady accustomed to being the smallest and succeeds anyway.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Yrebmi

Huge fan of your posts/insights man. However I must respectfully counter that the average NHLer will be bigger than the average opponents he is used to. One of the most compelling arguements in Graudeau ability to translate his game is that he is aleady accustomed to being the smallest and succeeds anyway.

The thing is some people are making out like Ekland's size is a liability as a prospect. That's more bafflegab worthy of the extreme right wing.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

But competing against slightly bigger players isn't going to negate size/strength as an advantage. Bigger, stronger players can more easily protect the puck, win board battles, stand in front of the net and not be moved, and outmuscle the opposition.

Guys like Getzlaf, Perry, Malkin, etc are so good partially because of their size and strength combined with amazing skill. So much harder to check the big players with big reaches.

Yes NHLers will be bigger than Ekblad/Ritchie/Dal Colle/etc are used to. That doesn't mean their size/strength isn't a plus for them, an advantage, something that will help them in the NHL. I don't buy this argument that we should be suspect of how good they are because they're so big. Big + skilled is exactly what we need. We have got to be one of the smaller teams in the league, especially if you exclude 4th lines and 5/6 d-men. In the important positions we completely lack anybody with dominating physical strength. Maybe Monahan evolves into one. Maybe Colborne. Big powerforwards are completely lacking. No top 4 defenseman with huge size/strength. You know someone who might actually be able to push Getzlaf around.

I like the whole top end of the this draft. We're in a great position. Ekblad is perfect for us IMO. Both Sams I'd take in an instant. And if those go top 3 I'm pretty happy with any of Dal Colle, Ritchie or Draisaitl. One big defenseman, a couple great centres and a few big forwards. We can fill a need regardless of what falls to us.

[Caged Great]

To me, size is one of the biggest, most important things in a prospect. When there's two guys of roughly equal size, always go for the bigger player even if the weight's not there yet.

The one thing that I do think makes prospects with size overrated a bit is that they are competing with a grown man's size body against teenagers. That advantage can make a player look better than he is because he can simply push the opposing player out of the way. That will still happen as he gets older, but to a much lesser degree as there are other big players that he won't be able to push around.

Contrarily to some people's opinion of my view on players, it is absolutely vital that the Flames get bigger. We really can't afford to have more than Gaudreau and maybe Sven in the small guy category, and that's only if they become great scorers on this team (60+ points). Constantly, you see teams that are full of little players get bounced early in the playoffs even though they might have some of the best talent in the league.

That's why I am thrilled that we've got Monahan (6-2) Poirier (6-2) Knight (6-2) Colborne (6-5) and Jankowski (6-4) in the system. Size + skill = success.

The only reason why I haven't been on the Ritchie bandwagon is that I simply don't think he has the raw skill necessary to be a top line player. I think Reinhart, Bennett and Dal Colle are all first liners on the Flames if we acquire them. I think Draisaitl would be our 2nd line C behind Monahan. If Ritchie's raw skill was even in the same ballpark, I'd consider him to be the front runner, but he has more in common skill wise with Virtanen than the others and I'd rather go with a more sure thing 60+ point guy in the future, which I think all 3 of those forwards will become that.

We need flash. We need that sick type of skill that we've seen out of Monahan and Gaudreau. Realistically we need to have 4-6 of those calibre of players on the team if we want to win the cup in a few seasons. MDC/Bennett/Reinhart seem to have that same kind of flash to them. I can't wait to see how this all unfolds.

[Dagger]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

The thing is some people are making out like Ekland's size is a liability as a prospect. That's more bafflegab worthy of the extreme right wing.

The knock isn't that he's big, the knock is that a lot of his dominance stems from his size. He's always been a man amongst boys, so it's going to be a transition for him when that size isn't quite as advantageous as it was before. Coupled with the fact that he isn't a great skater, it's not illogical to question his ceiling.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by strombad

But it's ok if you're still hoping for that... right?

Lombardi did figure it out.

His concussions held him back.

[djsFlames]

Yeah, I'm not sure Ritchie has the skill to be a 1st line NHLer in the future either. The size is great, the shot is top notch, but he doesn't have all that much else. And part of why he thrived this year was his massive size advantage with a physically mature body when playing teenage kids.

But with Reinhart, Bennett and Dal Colle I can see 1st line potential. Them weighing 50lbs less than Ritchie and generating more offense than he did also says a lot to me. Get them to bulk up and they'll be monsters.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

Yeah, I'm not sure Ritchie has the skill to be a 1st line NHLer in the future either. The size is great, the shot is top notch, but he doesn't have all that much else. And part of why he thrived this year was his massive size advantage with a physically mature body when playing teenage kids.

But with Reinhart, Bennett and Dal Colle I can see 1st line potential. Them weighing 50lbs less than Ritchie and generating more offense than he did also says a lot to me. Get them to bulk up and they'll be monsters.

Powerforwards don't necessarily need to be the most skilled players on the team to still be extremely effective in contributing to winning. Lucic for example is not the most skilled Bruin but there's many teams out there (including ours and EDM) that are dying for a player like that. Lucic can play 1st line even though he doesn't have what you'd call 1st line skill.

The last time we had success in the playoffs we had a beast on our top two lines who didn't necessarily have 1st line skill but was so big and strong that he was hard to contain. Who was it? Chris Simon. His role in our cup run is underrated. He gave us someone who couldn't be moved in front of the net. He helped our PP immensely. He had the hands to pot 20-30 goals if everything went right. He made room for his linemates and made everyone feel bigger and stronger.

True powerforwards are one of the rarest commodities in the league. Try to name 10 really elite ones, I can't even do that. They are rare and they really help winning.

Is Ritchie one of the most 5 skilled forwards this draft? Nope. But does he have the best size/strength/skill combination in the draft? Seems like it. A big, strong, powerforward who can finish is a very, very valuable commodity and helps you win even if he's not quite as skilled as some of the other guys available. He can be the complimentary player to more skilled guys. He could be making room for guys like Gaudreau and Baertschi and protecting them while finishing their plays.

I'm not saying he's our best pick at #4. But I think people are underrating the package he has and underrating how important his size/strength could be at the next level. I'm still seeing this argument that he should be downranked because he was physically dominant but I don't understand that because his physical dominance is his appeal. True powerforwards are as rare as big #1 centres and big top two defensemen. Every team is looking for them. One of the reasons why is that refs put away their whistles a bit more in the playoffs and big powerforwards are way harder to obstruct than smaller forwards. Powerforwards excel in the playoffs and you need their size and strength to bull through checking.

Not everyone sees the game the same way as me and thus don't value powerforwards as highly so I'm guessing I'll never sway some of you. But I know Burke thinks similarly to me in this. Some would argue we need top end skill more. But frankly with Gaudreau, Granlund, Baertschi, Poirier, Klimchuk, Monahan and Backlund we've got some good skill coming up. What we lack completely are powerforwards except for maybe Poirier and Ferland.

I'm not saying take Ritchie over the Sams or anything crazy like that but I'm a bit bewildered by how many people aren't into grabbing a powerforward at #5 if we end up there.

[Enoch Root]

Clark Gillies was an example of a big power forward that had decent skills, but not elite by any stretch.

And he was on one of the greatest lines of all time for several years.