Is Bob Hartley the right coach for this team?

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Steamwhistle has it right. Sven may very well be treated differently than Glencross. I would be pissed if they treated them the same.
There is no vets vs. rookie agenda. Hartley wants to improve Sven and therefor improve the team.

[Badgers Nose]

Originally Posted by northcrunk

When was the last time Jackman even threw a big hit? I can't seem to remember a single game where his game stood out or I saw him finish a check that made an impace. It's like he is trying to be a 3rd line scoring winger who checks once in a while.

... and who takes cheap/bad timed penalties.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by Fighting Banana Slug

Steamwhistle has it right. Sven may very well be treated differently than Glencross. I would be pissed if they treated them the same.
There is no vets vs. rookie agenda. Hartley wants to improve Sven and therefor improve the team.

All this assumes that this is the reason why Sven was benched. I don't think it was but I also don't think that the Flames will ever publically admit that it wasn't. They'll just spout the bs line that its for the good of the player and to help him in his development.

How does sitting in the pressbox help his development especially when he's been playing quite well. He's being punished because he's been playing well but well apparently isn't good enough... especially when others have been playing like ***t and they don't get benched.

That's a mixed message if there ever was one and will do nothing to help Sven. It might even destroy his confidence.

Sven was benched because once the veterans Stajan and Cammy and Jones came back there was no room for him in the line up.

[TjRhythmic]

Originally Posted by Petert

Stop sugar coating the benching.
It was the wrong decision, move on.

Get Jackman out, exile Glencross to the 4th line, and let the kids play.
Otherwise, may as well beg Iggy and Kipper to come back, those two are much better "veterans" to watch than what we have now.

No one is sugarcoating anything. And just because you think it was the wrong move, doesn't mean it was or wasn't.

Most people here question the decision because they are speaking from a fans perspective. Sven is an exciting player to watch. Doesn't mean that he is developing the way the coaching staff wants him to. Him being scratched is just a part of developing him into the player that he deserves to be, and that everyone hopes he'll be. Like a poster said, there isn't one way to develop a prospect... each one is different.

I'll pull the cliche response, but if you want to watch kid's play, watch the kid's up north play.

This isn't junior, these kid's aren't playing against their peers... they are playing against guys that have years of experience, men. It requires different things. Rookies need to learn the little things that make you a long time NHL'er. It's not based on offense alone.

Sven doesn't want to be a liability out there, regardless of what other players goals are, that is his goal for himself. You can't look at Sven and say, well so and so is doing this, why isn't he being punished. Because so and so isn't Sven. Sven is responsible for Sven. Just like Monahan is responsible for Monahan, and so on.

Obviously the coaching staff has identified a need for Sven to improve on and they are DEVELOPING, again, DEVELOPING, that area they identified. Next year, it might be another area... and so on.

It's a progression... give these kids one thing to focus on, and have them put their all into that one thing. Hartley seems to be giving him, and others, the foundation to build on... and once he gets one area, he'll move on to the next and the next and the next... each one he'll develop faster then the next.

We, as fans, have no idea what others are being asked to work on and DEVELOP. So some may seem they aren't getting punished for the same things..

With Jackman, we don't know what the coaches ask him to do, what his role is... just like the other veterans. We can get on Glencross as much as we want, yet we have no clue what he's going through... or what his effort is, my view is that it seems like he's trying to do to much which is making him play tight, which to some, looks like lazy play. He's thinking to much. Stajan back is good for him as Stajan plays a really simple game, in turn, Glencross gets back to his simple, effective play.

And many have mentioned that if a kid sees these vets taking a night off, then the kids think it's ok to take a night off. If that is the attitude of the young guys coming in, then they aren't the type of players you want on your team. You have to be self motivated in becoming the best player you can be. If you lay blame on others, your ####ed, and you'll never amount to anything as a pro player.

I have no problem with how things are being handled... it's month 1 of year 1 of the rebuild. Patience.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by TjRhythmic

What I think is funny is that the same people that are pissed about scratching Sven and feel that Sven should be given minutes because it's a rebuild, laugh at Edmonton with how they went about their rebuild by just giving minutes to their young stars.

Like many have said, and what I believe as well, is that young players benefit greatly by getting a chance to sit back and see the game. Pretty sure sometime in the year Monahan will in the press box for a game or 2. Sven might end up there again... it's all part of learning the NHL, and paying your dues.

It's amazing how fast cp changes... laughable actually. 1st 5 games, best team and coach ever. 2nd 5 games... they are the worst. They have 10 points in 10 games... by all accounts, I'm more than happy with that right now.

What I find funny is people who argue in the extremes of a false dichotomy...

"You don't like how they treat Sven, you must love what's going on up
north"

Maybe it isn't apparent to you, but Edmonton is the extreme and there is a pretty big gap in between those two.

It is possible to be a little more reasonable with Sven without doing the full garbage of free ice-time up north.

I would have thought posters would be able to see that but I guess not.

By the way, I agree that sitting can be valuable. If Hartley says "hey Sven you've been making some progress but we're going to give you a night off to catch your breathe and watch from upstairs - we think it will help you" then great.

But that's not what happened. Hartley benched him in Phx then told him he wasn't doing enough. Completely different and IMO unwarranted.

You can disagree and that's fine, but don't be a mindless DB and imply that we that we can't see what's wrong in Edmonton.

[Poe969]

I think I want to change things, I think he's the right coach for this team because I think the wheels will fall off soon and they won't do well collectively and he'll be a good scape goat. He is the right coach for this team but not the team that will become good in a couple of years.

[OzSome]

Veterans comes back and young guys sits or get sent down to AHL. We are in a rebuilding year and it seems like the best time to give the young guys develop their skills and give them more experience in the NHL. Problem is the Flames started well and started winning. So, management and coaching staff thinks chances of making the playoffs are better. So, they play the veterans and sits young guys. Veterans doesn't seem to be as hungry as the young guys. I hope the team realize which way are they going. Can't really blame Hartley for trying to put more veterans...he is just trying to save his job. He might think chances of winning are far better with more veterans.

[Petert]

Any half decent hockey fan with a pair of half decent eyes along with a half decent TV set can observe the following FACTS:

Glencross has been playing like a pile of hot #### in all three zones.
Jackman, on top of playing like a pile of hot ####, has also been in full ######ed mode causing absolutely unnecessary penalties.
Sven, been hustling up and down the ice, playing both offensive and defensive hockey in all three zones and creating "exciting" plays.

Win now mode, Sven has been way more effective than Glencross and Jackman.
Future wise, Sven will be way more important than Glencross and Jackman.
Sitting in the press box "develop" nothing, especially when there are obvious garbage playing precious ice time out there who are playing like garbage and are not part of the future plan.
That's what make the decision wrong.

Hartley was giving BS reasons regarding the whole benching issues.
If it has anything to do with "developing", I am pretty damn sure he would have said it by now.

It WAS the wrong move, move on, and stop sugar coating because you ARE.
And this whole thing has nothing to do with the Soilers, so stop derailing this to that direction.
Playing our rookies because our rookies been more deserving than our veterans (assistant captain to boost!) is completely different than handing out free monies and free ice time to a bunch of spoiled kids.

Fact, Sven has been out playing both Glencross and Jackman.

[Iceman90]

Originally Posted by bluck

Is Bob Hartley the right coach for this team?

For right now, yes.

[Diemenz]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

You can disagree and that's fine, but don't be a mindless DB and imply that we that we can't see what's wrong in Edmonton.

I view CP as fan forum where people can have differing views and discuss these views. Some choose the high road and conduct themselves as adults and some choose the opposite.

I think your use of name calling is a extremely childish, your point could have been made without mindless DB thrown in there. I fail to see how a personal attack benefits or strengthens your opinion.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Rerun

So if you're a vet you have immunity? Perhaps if a vet is playing below what he's capable, being benched is exactly what should happen. Too bad various coaches didn't bench Iggy a few games. If they had, perhaps things might have been different the past few years.


Bench the players who deserve it... not the rookie that doesn't and is playing better than vet who does.

I never said that vets should have immunity, jus that there are different reasons why a rookie/prospect might be scratched than why a veteran might be. Just like there are many reasons why a top 6 player might be scratched that a bottom 6 might not be scratched for (and vice versa). Not all players are equal and should be treated the same.

I actually don't think any of the players (Glencross and Baertschi included) have been so bad that they need to scratched based on their play. Baertschi has more complicated factors involved though.

[bluck]

2-7-1 in our last 10, Scratching Sven multiple times and getting blown out, Playing Jackman with Hudler and Monahan? And now a loss to the worst team in the league officially hitting rock bottom. Hartley is a Veterans coach not a young team coach and I think it's becoming more evident over the last 10 games. Yes I know it's a rebuild and we are expected to lose but Hartley has made a ton of boneheaded moves. I ask you now... has your opinion changed at all?

[memphusk]

My opinion stays the same. He is not the right choice.

[Diemenz]

Originally Posted by bluck

2-7-1 in our last 10, Scratching Sven multiple times and getting blown out, Playing Jackman with Hudler and Monahan? And now a loss to the worst team in the league officially hitting rock bottom. Hartley is a Veterans coach not a young team coach and I think it's becoming more evident over the last 10 games. Yes I know it's a rebuild and we are expected to lose but Hartley has made a ton of boneheaded moves. I ask you now... has your opinion changed at all?

Nope.

This is YEAR ONE of a rebuild. The goal of the coach is to have the players improve not to win games. Monahan, Brodie, Colborne have all improved greatly under Hartley as well as several other players. Just because Sven is taking longer versus everyone else doesn't mean it's the coaches fault. I am getting tired of everyone blaming the coach every single year. This team has looked better in loses this year then they looked in wins 2 years ago, the only difference is kipper was here to save the game for Calgary.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by TjRhythmic

It's a progression... give these kids one thing to focus on, and have them put their all into that one thing. Hartley seems to be giving him, and others, the foundation to build on... and once he gets one area, he'll move on to the next and the next and the next... each one he'll develop faster then the next.

....

I have no problem with how things are being handled... it's month 1 of year 1 of the rebuild. Patience.

That is patience. I for one hope that his learning speeds up and doesn't slow down.

[Fire]

I don't expect Hartley to be back after his contract is up but he's doing as much as he can with what he's given. Another coach will get the praise of bringing this team back in the playoffs in a few years. Maybe Ward deserves a chance.

[EYE_Overstand]

How many coaches do we have to go through? Are we the Oilers? Sheesh.

I wish that for once we can keep a coach for 5-7 seasons and see what this team is about and for it to grow together.

I guess Blues and Kings both had the same coach during the first years of their rebuilds, but then Hitchcock and Sutter came in and took them to the next levels. Maybe this is what we will see with Hartley.

[djsFlames]

I'd actually like to see Ward up here. And I thought he would've been a good choice when they were looking at who to hire. An intelligent coach that has a defined system and sticks to it, and obviously right now has every player buying in down in Abby. He's got plenty of experience with young players.

Hartley is alright, but I feel like he's inexperienced with this type of situation and how to handle some young guys and get them to understand what to do. And I really don't get his system. We seem like a pretty loosy-goosey offensive club that is always looking for the quick transition, but we're not even doing that much right now, so I'm left wondering exactly what kind of structure our team game has. And then when our young kids aren't great defensively, he sits them and gives them the tough treatment, makes the kid watch our crappy system at work fail and us get blown out, and then expect them to come out of it knowing what to do at the other end of the rink. We don't need to go full Brent sutter with out system, but at least have some obvious team structure in the defensive end. Just seems like we're running around too often and when the goals start to pile up we don't know how to adjust as a team to stem the tide, and instead rely on stand-on-head goaltending to slow the opposition down. And I think a good part of that is on coaching.

I am dissatisfied at the moment, but at the same time I think that even with a better team system and a guy like Ward behind the bench, with the level of competition in our division and conference, he still probably wouldn't achieve much better results.

[Itse]

Knee-jerk reactions can be extremely harmful at times like these. A rebuild is a long-term process.

[Vulcan]

I'd like a few more wins or at least some more jump in the players but top draft picks are the silver lining, so keep Hartley for now.