[PGT] Flames embarrassed at home again

[troutman]

Originally Posted by ernie

The first was a comment or two about the Flames being better on paper. I'd like to see the paper that those people are reading because quite frankly this is what should have been expected based on the "real" paper.

WRGMG - TOR and MTL are winning, and they don't seem any better on paper.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by EddyBeers

The fact that some fans think Comeau is a significant part of the problem is evidence of how fooled this crap about winning now has made people. This is a bad hockey team at almost every conceivable position, putting in Street or Jones or some other player in for Comeau will not change anything.

Not Street or Jones, you need a fighter on that line.

Fighter/Jackman/Begin. That's the 4th line.

If Hartley had said nothing then it's fine. I sort of thought it was nothing, Lewis lost his balance and ran into MacDonald and got a penalty. He may have gotten up and apologized and the Flames accepted it. We don't know.

Plus it was a PP in a 2-1 game, why not try to make the Kings pay on the scoreboard and tie up the game (if the PP wasn't so useless yesterday)

But since Hartley has made a big deal out of it this morning, he obviously thought it was a cheapshot. So he needs to field a lineup to reflect how he wants his team to play. Jackman and Begin should have been running Lewis the rest of the night but they saw almost no icetime in the 3rd.

[St. Pats]

Originally Posted by EddyBeers

The fact that some fans think Comeau is a significant part of the problem is evidence of how fooled this crap about winning now has made people. This is a bad hockey team at almost every conceivable position, putting in Street or Jones or some other player in for Comeau will not change anything.

No kidding. Same thing every year. The scapegoat is always some fourth line / 3rd pairing dufus. Like swapping out Butler and Comeau would help the Flames. All you are getting in return is some other bozo or a pick. Meaning some AHL type will come up and play the spot. A younger version of the same thing.

Every team needs their top players to carry the team.

Look at the players posters are saying should get dumped. All the lesser lights plus maybe Iggy. When it clearly should be any of the above other than the young guys with upside.

Comeau isn't even a tenth of 1 percent of the problem.

[rotten42]

lazy + no heart = losing. We have seen it for at least 3-4 years now. Switch the coach...same thing. Switch the role players....same thing. Time to chop from the top of the food chain. The problem is with the "leadership" in the dressing room.

[Zulu29]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Sure but Hartley has to put his money where his mouth is. If he wants a grittier team, stop playing Comeau! What does Comeau bring? He can't score, he can't hit and he can't fight.

Not sure if you've noticed but he doesn't have a lot to work with. If people start blaming the coach again this team and fan base is in bigger trouble than I thought.

[ernie]

Originally Posted by troutman

WRGMG - TOR and MTL are winning, and they don't seem any better on paper.

It's certainly not all about talent. I do think Hartley is trying to coach the wrong system given his personnel but that seems to be a organizational decision as well. Not blaming Hartley. Carlyle/Toronto have realized they need to play the way they do.

However, I look at the Leafs roster and while nothing really jumps out at you talent wise what does jump out is a few things:

-Grabovski has been a good second line center the last few years.
-Kessel while having ups and downs is young and a game changer....it lets them get by a lesser first line center.
-Jay McClement is a terrific bottom 6 center and PKer.
-most striking is that while again the names don't jump out at you on the wings the ages of those players certainly do. Kadri, van Riemsdyk, MacCarthur, Frattin, Kulemin....all 27 years or younger. I'd also point out that many of the forwards not named Kessel show a dedication to the defensive side of the game most of the flame forwards do not. So...talent wise no they aren't better but I think they are very very much a better group when it comes to those intangibles.
-they have received better goaltending.

Also....the Leafs can certainly still falter. We've seen this from them before but right now they are playing well as a TEAM. Something the flames under a multitude of coaches have never figured out how to do.

For the Habs I would argue that they have two forwards that are currently better than anything the Flames can put on the ice in Plekanec and Pacioretty and I think overall they have a good mix of players. The blueline IMO is better by a fairly good margin.

[Sainters7]

Originally Posted by troutman

WRGMG - TOR and MTL are winning, and they don't seem any better on paper.

Besides both of those teams getting better goaltending than us so far this year, I think the East is just a different style of play. I know there's some bruisers, but for the most part its pretty wide open hockey out East; something this year's Flames are better suited for.

IMO we're built like an Eastern Conference team, which just doesn't work against a lot of the big, tight checking teams out West..especially this year, when you only play your own conference.

[Zulu29]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Not Street or Jones, you need a fighter on that line.

Fighter/Jackman/Begin. That's the 4th line.

If Hartley had said nothing then it's fine. I sort of thought it was nothing, Lewis lost his balance and ran into MacDonald and got a penalty. He may have gotten up and apologized and the Flames accepted it. We don't know.

Plus it was a PP in a 2-1 game, why not try to make the Kings pay on the scoreboard and tie up the game (if the PP wasn't so useless yesterday)

But since Hartley has made a big deal out of it this morning, he obviously thought it was a cheapshot. So he needs to field a lineup to reflect how he wants his team to play. Jackman and Begin should have been running Lewis the rest of the night but they saw almost no icetime in the 3rd.

So who is this magical fighter that Hartley was supposed to use? How is he supposed to field a tough lineup when management has given him a tub of goo to fill his lines?

Hartley is one of the only people affiliated with the Flames franchise who has said anything that makes me think they have a clue what's going on. We're lucky to have him.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Zulu29

So who is this magical fighter that Hartley was supposed to use? How is he supposed to field a tough lineup when management has given him a tub of goo to fill his lines?

Hartley is one of the only people affiliated with the Flames franchise who has said anything that makes me think they have a clue what's going on. We're lucky to have him.

You know I'm Hartley's biggest fan

Comeau may not be the team's biggest problem but I just don't think he belongs on this team.

[AltaGuy]

Originally Posted by Zulu29

So who is this magical fighter that Hartley was supposed to use? How is he supposed to field a tough lineup when management has given him a tub of goo to fill his lines?

Hartley is one of the only people affiliated with the Flames franchise who has said anything that makes me think they have a clue what's going on. We're lucky to have him.

Ha, yup. There's no way we could be anything but butter with this group. And look at the two guys we're waiting to get back - Backlund and Baertschi may be good players, but no one is ever going to accuse them of adding to our toughness.

Given Baertschi's seeming injury proneness, I'm pretty worried about putting him back on the ice with the softest bunch of players I've ever seen in a Flames' uniform. Could be a recipe for disaster.

I've said it before, but I'll say it again - while I enjoy Hartley's uptempo style, and I like many of Feaster's moves so far - one look at the four teams who were successful at coming out of the Western Conference first round last year should've been an indication we were on a rough track: Phoenix, Nashville, LA, and St Louis are pretty much the exact opposite of the team we've got.

[PeteLFan]

Even more shameful, on home ice we got pushed around all over the ice, then our goalie gets run and we skate away like a bunch of cowards.

Not to mention your coach calls out the effort, and you go and play even worse the next game.

This is a bad, bad hockey team. Luckily this is a short season, and it will end soon. If they think building around 36 year old Jarome Iginla, and over 30 players is going to work, then we are in BIG trouble going forward.

We need to blow this team up. Its clear we lack top end talent, its clear we lack speed, its clear lack top young players, its clear they just don't care.

This is like the Maple Leafs under Pat Quinn, the big fat millionaires country club. They go out night after night, and embarrass the city of Calgary, and the Flames organization with these types of efforts.

[DuffMan]

I'm just amazed at how the Flames can look like a team that is playing the 3rd game in a back to back to back when they've haven't played in 2 days, and make a team they are playing on the second night of a back to back, look refreshed and enthused.

[BBQorMILDEW]

We need less millionaires and more hockey players.

The last two games have been absolutely disgraceful.

[PeteLFan]

One other thing, Hartley promised that we would be proud of this team, and we would he a hard working group. I can stomach a loss, if the team goes out and gives a honest effort. We have not seen a hard working team we can be proud of, I think Hartley wishes he could have those words back.

[InglewoodFan]

Originally Posted by PeteLFan

One other thing, Hartley promised that we would be proud of this team, and we would he a hard working group. I can stomach a loss, if the team goes out and gives a honest effort. We have not seen a hard working team we can be proud of, I think Hartley wishes he could have those words back.

The exception being the Chicago game. The effort the team gave that night made me proud to be a fan. If they could wind it up like that every night they could beat the world. "Every game matters" indeed.

Hartley has to be baffled at how the team can just turn the effort level off and on like that.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Southside

I was wondering how Aliu was doing. Why not give him a shot.

PMM? Any insight on Aliu?

Aliu is not close to being an NHL player and even now is still a borderline AHL guy. Last year he was cut completely from and NHL organization. They didn't want him at all for any level and now he is going to come to the Flames and help the team? We are bad but we aren't that awful yet.

He also doesn't add toughness as he has a grand total of 4 fights in his "best" season and averages about 1-2 over his career.

[PeteLFan]

Hes slowly starting to look like Brent Sutter did after he joined us. Brent actually was smiling, had a head full of hair even with that hair line. After his stint here you could the visible bags under his eyes, the thinning of the hair, he looked 70.

[Dienasty]

Originally Posted by kirant

I'm sorry, but that boat left a couple years ago. Iginla and Kiprusoff no longer command that great a return, and Giordano would be a tough sell for great value the way he's been for at least a season and a half.

The Flames were at a crossroads as to rebuild or attempt a last couple chances at winning and Feaster hit "gun for the Playoffs" all the way. It was a fun ride, but now we live with the consequences.

Fair enough but there are plenty of teams that the Flames could convince that Iggy is the missing piece to a championship run. (Lets not forget he still scored 30 last year) Those teams being (Pitt, Boston, LA Kings) not to mention Buffalo is still in a win now mode and are looking to shake things up and need some leadership in the worst way. Iggy is still worth an elite prospect a 1st rounder and 1-2 other pieces (bottom 6 forward/2nd or 3rd rounder) especially since Gaustad was just traded for a 1st rounder and Penner went for a 1st rounder, Teubert and a conditional pick even when Penner was traded he had a bloated contract and character issues...

On top of that once you get those teams (mentioned above) rumored to be in the Iggy sweep stakes other contenders may want to jump in for the run or prevent a rival from getting him. I could see NYR, the Devils, Detroit and Phx being very interested in adding him. There will be a strong market for him.

Outside of Iggy how about Bouwmeester? His value is clearly on the rise and I could name a few teams that are desperate for solid 2 way D men (that can log 30 minutes a night) right now (Philly, Detroit, Edmonton, Devils, LA Kings).

If the Flames traded only Iggy and Bouwmeester the Flames could easily walk away with 2 1st rounders 2 top 50 prospects/young forwards, and depth. That would be immense in rebuilding this team in 2 years rather then 5.

As for Gio (Ottawa needs D in a bad way and have 2 young goalies Bishop and Lehner) and Kipper you talked about how there value is down... wait will a contenders goalie goes down...or Philly (Read+Loughton) or (Loughton+1st+4th rounders). Heck if the Flames Take Bryz back in the deal we may be able to get a couple more picks/prospects... (It would just cost the owners about 30M to buy him out...)

Other players with decent value:
Tanguay/Glencross/Stempniak/Wideman/Hudler

And if they could move Stajan while he is playing his best hockey in a Flames jersey...

[SuperMatt18]

Outside of the goalie running incident were the Flames really pushed around last night.

Flames outhit L.A. 18-15 and actually played one of their more physical games of the season.

Iginla, Wideman, Comeau all had hits that I clearly remember as pretty big hits. Iginla had two really good hits on Doughty in particular.

[dammage79]

The worst thing about all of this is right now? Management will sit on their hands and do nothing about it. All while saying the answers are in the room.

I would have believed it a week ago, but now I am not so sure. Hartley is not the problem.
The D has a good top 4 group. But the forwards are just lost. I cannot count how many times last night Wideman tossed his arms up in the air because a forward could not accept a pass or there was no one paying attention to pass to.

Just frustrating to watch right now. Brodie is having a good break out season and it'll be all for not.