Hamas Military Leader Killed (Here we go again...)

[Coys1882]

These threads always turn into a gongshow. As someone who is just slowly learning about the middle east and all its problems, I do have one question.

Why is it the Jews/Israel sole responsibility to help the Palestinians? What about all the Arab countries? Jordan, Egypt, Iran, Iraq, and Syria - why aren't they helping them? Why don't they create them a state or welcome them in if they believe they're being treated so poorly by Israel?

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Coys1882

These threads always turn into a gongshow. As someone who is just slowly learning about the middle east and all its problems, I do have one question.

Why is it the Jews/Israel sole responsibility to help the Palestinians? What about all the Arab countries? Jordan, Egypt, Iran, Iraq, and Syria - why aren't they helping them? Why don't they create them a state or welcome them in if they believe they're being treated so poorly by Israel?

They've done the opposite. Prior to 1949 arabs were allowed to move freely between Egypt and the Gaza Strip. After 1949, Egypt locked the door.

Yasser Arafat's father had one Palestinian parent and one Egyptian one. After 1949, Egypt declared him a Palestinian and stripped him of his property in Egypt. Yasser Arafat was born and raised in Egypt. He was never given Egyptian citizenship. He was never allowed access to his grandmother's former property.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Coys1882

These threads always turn into a gongshow. As someone who is just slowly learning about the middle east and all its problems, I do have one question.

Why is it the Jews/Israel sole responsibility to help the Palestinians? What about all the Arab countries? Jordan, Egypt, Iran, Iraq, and Syria - why aren't they helping them? Why don't they create them a state or welcome them in if they believe they're being treated so poorly by Israel?

Because most Palestinians would refuse to leave. It's not only about living in dignity, it's about living in dignity in your own land. Us as immigrants can't usually comprehend the idea of dying before we leave our ancestral homeland, since all of us have done so or have ancestors who have done so. But to Palestinians it's a very real issue.

[Envitro]

Exactly this ^ Coys

Plus it's much more convenient to use the Israeli/Palestinian conflicts as a way to distract your angry populace so that their anger is not directed at you for running their country in a less than ideal way (generally speaking), and with little or no civic rights.

The core problem in the Arab world is that they refuse to accept that Israel exists as a real country. That's why they keep referring to the "occupation" and the "occupiers"/"aggressors". Once they come to terms with that and realize that it's there to stay then there will be peace. As __Q__ stated before in this thread, 5 million Palestinians and 5 million Israelis are not going anywhere.

They both have to acknowledge each others right to exist and have an independent, secure state and right to self-determination.

[Thor]

truth?

http://www.democracynow.org/2012/11/...s_assassinated

Israel broke an informal ceasefire on Wednesday by assassinating Hamas military commander Ahmed Jabari in an air strike. The Israeli peace activist Gershon Baskin, who helped mediate talks between Israel and Hamas in the deal to release Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit, has revealed Jabari was assassinated just hours after he received the draft of a permanent truce agreement with Israel, which included mechanisms for maintaining the ceasefire. Baskin, the founder of the Israel/Palestine Center for Research and Information, joins us from Jerusalem. We also speak with Palestinian journalist Mohammed Omer based in Gaza.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by Thor

truth?

Yes. A few pages back I linked to and quoted an editorial by Gershod Baskin. I recommend it.

[Thor]

Ughh sorry so much I'm skipping, will do.

[Red Slinger]

Originally Posted by Thor

truth?

http://www.democracynow.org/2012/11/...s_assassinated

It's "truthy" but not entirely the truth, as is most often the case with this conflict.

Despite the backroom peace negotiations, Hamas ramped up the firing of rockets into Israel. It's easy to say that there was a peace deal on the table but Hamas has made it clear, and explicitly stated, that they have no interest in peace with Israel. Hamas uses these peace treaties as an opportunity to re-arm and re-organize.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by Thor

truth?

http://www.democracynow.org/2012/11/...s_assassinated

Hamas was launching rockets almost daily for the entire year, all they had to do was stop launching. Almost nothing else matters. While Israel was showing restraint, the world sat back.

I am not even sure if the article makes sense or even matters in the context of the daily attacks.

[HPLovecraft]

Anderson Cooper talking about Hamas launching rockets nearby the media building that was targeted by the IDF earlier today. Not surprisingly, they continue to use civilian areas as launching pads for their attacks. It'd be a gold mine for them if the IDF nailed that media building again, and they know it. Just like before, when the IDF targeted it for reportedly housing Hamas communications gear on the roof, people will jump all over it across the net.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by smoothpops

"The truth is that if Israel were to put down its arms there would be no more Israel. If the Arabs were to put down their arms there would be no more war."

WOW! that's one of the dumbest statements ever made, by either side!!

I think its time that the world recognizes that both sides have no interest in lasting peace. Many peace proposals have been offered from different sources/countries, and neither side has shown any signs of wanting to implement them. at this point, what's the point of supporting either side?

You don't think Israel would prefer to have a Canada/US relationship with the rest of the Middle East as opposed to what they have now?

But I'm sure they're just being paranoid dicks, right? No reason for them to be alarmed? The holocaust, the seven days war, Munich, they're clearly over reacting.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Because most Palestinians would refuse to leave. It's not only about living in dignity, it's about living in dignity in your own land. Us as immigrants can't usually comprehend the idea of dying before we leave our ancestral homeland, since all of us have done so or have ancestors who have done so. But to Palestinians it's a very real issue.

I'm sure it was a very real for our ancestors. They sacked up and left because there was a better option elsewhere. Maybe the israelis should be air dropping cheap android phones into gaza and giving the palestinians the gift of the Internet. Clearly the information that a better life is available isnt getting out.

[spiteface]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

I'm sure it was a very real for our ancestors. They sacked up and left because there was a better option elsewhere. Maybe the israelis should be air dropping cheap android phones into gaza and giving the palestinians the gift of the Internet. Clearly the information that a better life is available isnt getting out.

although what you say makes a lot of sense, that part of the world is one of the most ancient, beautiful and holy places on earth. for those people who are deeply rooted to their land it is a matter of duty and dignity towards their heritage.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by spiteface

although what you say makes a lot of sense, that part of the world is one of the most ancient, beautiful and holy places on earth. for those people who are deeply rooted to their land it is a matter of duty and dignity towards their heritage.

I'm sure you've had a friend or several, maybe even had this happen to you yourself, who was in a relationship with a girl that they were way too into. They never hung out with you anymore, it was always 'oh, me and Megan are going to do this' or whatever. And the guy who was one of your good friends was insufferable and you wondered what happened to him.

Well, he was in love with this hot chick and even though he was miserable, he couldn't stand the thought of being without her, or worse, someone else having her. And when they finally broke up, he had a hall of fame hissy and was miserable for two to six weeks, but then afterwards, he started to become the person you were friends with in the first place. And at a certain point, he was over this girl, and was capable of acknowledging that he was in a bad relationship and that breaking up was the best thing that ever happened to him. And then he got on with his life.

Palestine needs to start seeing other lands.

[HPLovecraft]

Anderson Cooper ✔ @andersoncooper
Men dragging body behind motorcycle in #Gaza City. They were yelling he was a spy for Israel. http://instagr.am/p/SQXOBvEkLg/

[chemgear]

^ More graphic pictures/story here:

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/11...street-corner/

[flylock shox]

Ceasefire apparently.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by HPLovecraft

Anderson Cooper ✔ @andersoncooper
Men dragging body behind motorcycle in #Gaza City. They were yelling he was a spy for Israel. http://instagr.am/p/SQXOBvEkLg/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20413625

Local journalists say they saw Hamas fighters summarily execute six people on Tuesday afternoon for being Israeli informers.
One eyewitness told AFP news agency: "Gunmen in a minibus pulled up in the neighbourhood, pushed six men out and shot them without leaving the vehicle."

I'm sure all of these people received fair trials beforehand too.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by blankall

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20413625




I'm sure all of these people received fair trials beforehand too.

And this is why Palestinian civililians are too afraid to cooperate with Israel. I have no doubt that Palestinians, the majority of whom want peace, are too afraid to voice their dislike for Hamas.

Being an Israeli "spy" is as simple as allowing yourself to be searched at a checkpoint.

[Nyah]

Originally Posted by blankall

I'd also debate your characterization of the West Bank. As I previously stated, the new "settlements" are in confined areas of the West Bank. The majority of the West Bank Like I've already stated, there's really nothing about the history of Jerusalem that gives either side an exclusive claim to build in the area. The ultimate solution is going to invovle a land swap.

It's nice of them to confine new settlements in the West Bank. Gaza has hardly any room left. What a mess.



Fingers are crossed that this ceasefire holds up:

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/ar...against-israel