Kevin O'Leary's Letter to Premier Notley - Carbon Tax Discussion

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Locke

Or maybe....just maybe...as someone who understands basic concepts like:

"Making transporting things more expensive makes things that are transported more expensive."

Seems simple right?

And yet here we are.

Making transporting things more expensive makes things more expensive. Because it costs more money right? Like when the price of gas goes up? Or when we get something shipped to our province from BC which already has a carbon tax? Or any other province that has a PST on fuel sales. Yet we haven't seen any substantial passed on cost increases from any of those areas.

Your over the top "sky is falling" assessment is hard to take seriously because it doesn't seem to take into account how many times the added costs to companies which is passed on to consumers will be broken down or divided by amongst the consumers who it is being passed on to. You can't even say with certainty how much it will end up costing companies overall, this isn't to say you are wrong and there will be no additional costs, nor that I or anyone else who thinks the impact won't be as bad as you predict are right. It's just coming off as you telling everyone else they're wrong and you're right when neither side or the argument can make that claim with certainty.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Geez, who pissed in your cornflakes today?

Don't take it personally, he's like this in every thread when money/politics/taxes come up. It's his trigger.

[GaiJin]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

My business relies very little on transporting anything. Most everything supplied to my company is via digital means, and with suppliers not from Alberta.

I just cant see the carbon tax impacting my business in any dramatic way, but who knows what it will look like come the next election time. Right now, the 1% reduction in small business tax actually means more on the day-to-day from an accounting perspective. And when you're working with small business numbers, those numbers are magnified.

Banks spend a lot on document control, banks pay for this via service charges. My employer just put out the new fee schedule to our clients to cover the cost increase of one of the major input costs to the business plus what they expect to see for rate increases from other businesses that we have to purchase services and materials from. As our director said, its just not adding 6% to the diesel that gets burnt.
You do use commercial banking, do you not? Or are you running it out of cash from your mattress? This tax is cascading and by the sounds of it,very difficult to see what the total cost of it is going to be business, but thinking it won't cost you because you don't directly use transport services is a little comical,if not naive.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by GaiJin

Banks spend a lot on document control, banks pay for this via service charges. My employer just put out the new fee schedule to our clients to cover the cost increase of one of the major input costs to the business plus what they expect to see for rate increases from other businesses that we have to purchase services and materials from. As our director said, its just not adding 6% to the diesel that gets burnt.
You do use commercial banking, do you not? Or are you running it out of cash from your mattress? This tax is cascading and by the sounds of it,very difficult to see what the total cost of it is going to be business, but thinking it won't cost you because you don't directly use transport services is a little comical,if not naive.

Care to use real world examples rather than just anecdotal evidence? Haven't seen my bank fees jump yet, and I don't imagine I will. If they do I'll be sure to attribute to that gosh darn carbon tax.

Also, I purchase software. If the price of it even goes up a penny, I'll be sure to denote the cost increase to Alberta's carbon tax, and file a formal complaint to my vendors, even though the majority of them are in the US.

I'm on it good sir, don't you worry.

[GaiJin]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Care to use real world examples rather than just anecdotal evidence? Haven't seen my bank fees jump yet, and I don't imagine I will. If they do I'll be sure to attribute to that gosh darn carbon tax.

Also, I purchase software. If the price of it even goes up a penny, I'll be sure to denote the cost increase to Alberta's carbon tax, and file a formal complaint to my vendors, even though the majority of them are in the US.

I'm on it good sir, don't you worry.

Like posting my companies services sheet showing the increases? I would like to have a job to go to tomorrow.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

Making transporting things more expensive makes things more expensive. Because it costs more money right? Like when the price of gas goes up? Or when we get something shipped to our province from BC which already has a carbon tax? Or any other province that has a PST on fuel sales. Yet we haven't seen any substantial passed on cost increases from any of those areas.
.

What do you mean we haven't seen those costs passed on to the consumer?

The entire reason why the carbon tax works is because these costs get passed on to the consumer.

In the government study on the costs of a carbon tax to consumers it estimated that 50% of the costs will be passed on to consumers.

How does a carbon tax work if the consumer isn't forced to make choices due to increased costs.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by GGG

What do you mean we haven't seen those costs passed on to the consumer?

The entire reason why the carbon tax works is because these costs get passed on to the consumer.

In the government study on the costs of a carbon tax to consumers it estimated that 50% of the costs will be passed on to consumers.

How does a carbon tax work if the consumer isn't forced to make choices due to increased costs.

I'm not sure where you read no costs were passed on. I wrote that there hasn't been substantial ones, or at the very least they were not at the extreme levels that some here are claiming will inevitably be reached.

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

Or when we get something shipped to our province from BC which already has a carbon tax? Or any other province that has a PST on fuel sales. Yet we haven't seen any substantial passed on cost increases from any of those areas.

BC has lower corporate and income tax to more than account for the carbon levy. So if it's produced and sold in BC they don't really have to pass on those costs. Most provinces have some sort of provincial/hst tax on their gas so there's really not much advantage there. Cities are where it gets a little wacky. But the reality is those prices are worked into costs as will our carbon levy.

[Dion]

Yet another example of how the NDP has effed up it's climate plan and why we shouldn't trust them....

What’s the point of a lot of lofty talk about social license for pipelines, knowing some environmentalists and aboriginals will always oppose fossil fuel development, when the province is late out of the gate with initiatives that would make a tangible difference to the level of our emissions?

The NDP seems to know the value of energy efficiency. On its climate website, it says such tools are widely recognized as one of the most effective ways to reduce greenhouse gas emissions while saving consumers money. The government says initial programs starting early in 2017 will include free installation of residential efficiency products such as lighting, water fixtures and heating components.

The support sounds helpful. The problem is the government put its emphasis on plucking money from the pockets of Albertans rather than encouraging them to use less energy. The tax consequences begin Sunday; the incentives to be more energy efficient won’t arrive until a few months later, even according to the NDP’s best guess.

The only problem with the NDP’s excuses for the delay is that it acknowledges, again prominently on its website, that Alberta is the only province or territory without consumer energy efficiency programs. If the goal is so worthwhile, it seems odd that the NDP would spend months deliberating over how much the carbon tax should be, who should be exempted and how quickly it should rise in the future, but not be prepared with a corresponding suite of energy efficiency programs.

Little thought, it seems, was given to the ordinary Albertans who will pay the piper. If every other jurisdiction — many of them without a carbon tax — has figured out how ways to incent citizens to invest in energy-efficient upgrades, then surely Alberta could have too.

http://calgaryherald.com/opinion/edi...-late-arriving

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

BC has lower corporate and income tax to more than account for the carbon levy. So if it's produced and sold in BC they don't really have to pass on those costs. Most provinces have some sort of provincial/hst tax on their gas so there's really not much advantage there. Cities are where it gets a little wacky. But the reality is those prices are worked into costs as will our carbon levy.

Did the tax rates in BC go down when their carbon tax was introduced?

[GGG]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

I'm not sure where you read no costs were passed on. I wrote that there hasn't been substantial ones, or at the very least they were not at the extreme levels that some here are claiming will inevitably be reached.

Depends what you mean by substantial. If roughly equivalent to a PST isn't substantial then I guess nothing substantial had been / will be passed on.

The big on getting passed on in about 6 months will be the city carbon tax bill for its gas use. But again it will be 1-2% so it depends on your definition of significant.

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

Did the tax rates in BC go down when their carbon tax was introduced?

Yes. It's revenue neutral or better by law. Where are you going with this counselor?

[GGG]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

Did the tax rates in BC go down when their carbon tax was introduced?

Yes

[transplant99]

[Dion]

Calgary rec centre eyes turning off arena heaters due to carbon tax

Hockey fans at a southeast recreation centre are being advised to bundle up and bring blankets to games as the non-profit facility looks at ways to cope with Alberta's new carbon tax.

Les Turner, general manager of Cardel Rec South in Shawnessy, said the new provincial levy enacted New Year's Day will have a massive impact on the facility's bottom line, and operators are looking at several efficiencies to ensure the extra costs aren't passed along to users.

"We're pretty concerned about making sure recreation is affordable to all — that's our goal," he said.

Turner said operators have estimated the impact of the levy would increase the facility's annual natural gas bill, which last year was about $60,000, by about 33 per cent without any changes. More troubling is on the electrical side of the bill, also powered by natural gas, which is expected to see an estimated 20 per cent hike on its annual $360,000 bill.

"Right now we're taking the approach that the carbon tax is here and how are we going to deal with it," he said.

"We know we're going to be affecting the customers' experience. We're already trying to run with a thinner staff without degrading the facility."

The government has already promised a number of energy efficiency programs, including incentives for high-efficiency retrofits for businesses, non-profits and institutions, though the details won't be hammered out until the spring.

"We haven't recouped that investment and we're concerned there won't be any retroactive funding," Turner said.

Brent Wittmeier, press secretary to Alberta Environment Minister Shannon Phillips, said the province is ironing out the details on its rebate programs for both households and organizations, but there's still work to be done.

http://www.calgarysun.com/2017/01/04...-to-carbon-tax

[Dion]

When Alberta Party Leader Greg Clark went to see the latest Star Wars movie over the holidays, among the advertisements that ran before the film was one promoting Alberta’s climate leadership plan.

“People were jeering in the theatre,” said Clark, MLA for Calgary-Elbow. “And rightfully so. The ads are not about informing Albertans of a program they can take advantage of; it’s all about political spin.”

Clark thinks the carbon tax should be revenue-neutral as it is in British Columbia — where people pay the tax when they fill up their cars, for example, but get a break on their personal income tax. He added he is working on his own carbon tax strategy as part of a plan to restructure Alberta’s entire tax system. We won’t see his plan until spring but, hey, the Alberta Party is a one-politician opposition with few resources.

Clark also thinks the government has done a bad job explaining the positives of its carbon tax. People still seem confused about when or if they’ll qualify for a rebate, and Albertans won’t know until March the details of an incentive program to make their homes more energy efficient. And Clark resents the government spending $9 million on what he sees as an overtly partisan promotion of the climate plan.

We won’t know until late this year if the Climate Leadership Plan actually buys the necessary “social licence” to get construction underway on the Trans Mountain pipeline expansion to the West Coast.

Clark voted against the NDP’s Climate Leadership Implementation Act — better known as the carbon tax act — last June.

So did Alberta Liberal interim leader David Swann. He now supports the carbon tax, but grudgingly. He says the NDP has never properly communicated the anticipated effects of the tax, either economically or environmentally.

“Climate change is a real issue primarily caused by human activity,” Swann said in a statement Wednesday. “Action on climate change, however, must meet the same standards as any other government action: fair, transparent and accountable. This government might see less resistance to their policies if they put more weight on those principles.”

The comments from Swann and Clark are a problem for the NDP government.

The NDP can’t simply attack all critics of the carbon tax as misguided deniers of the science of man-made climate change.

http://edmontonjournal.com/news/poli...f-a-carbon-tax

[4X4]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

Don't take it personally, he's like this in every thread when money/politics/taxes come up. It's his trigger.

And your contribution to threads like this is the equivalent of what the FOI girls do for the Flames. Thanks for being here. We would have had to cancel everything without you, galldangit.

[cal_guy]

Originally Posted by GaiJin

Banks spend a lot on document control, banks pay for this via service charges. My employer just put out the new fee schedule to our clients to cover the cost increase of one of the major input costs to the business plus what they expect to see for rate increases from other businesses that we have to purchase services and materials from. As our director said, its just not adding 6% to the diesel that gets burnt.
You do use commercial banking, do you not? Or are you running it out of cash from your mattress? This tax is cascading and by the sounds of it,very difficult to see what the total cost of it is going to be business, but thinking it won't cost you because you don't directly use transport services is a little comical,if not naive.

It just so happens that UofC Assistant Professor Trevor Tombe and University of Ottawa Associate Professor Nicholas Rivers went ahead and model the indirect costs of the Carbon Tax using Statistics Canada's Social Policy Simulation Database and Model.

http://www.macleans.ca/economy/econo...ehold-and-why/

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by cal_guy

It just so happens that UofC Assistant Professor Trevor Tombe and University of Ottawa Associate Professor Nicholas Rivers went ahead and model the indirect costs of the Carbon Tax using Statistics Canada's Social Policy Simulation Database and Model.

http://www.macleans.ca/economy/econo...ehold-and-why/

My favorite part is when they said the carbon levy makes things cheaper in BC than the rest of Canada...

Overall, B.C. systematically has lower consumer price increases than the rest of Canada in the months following carbon tax increases. Again, this doesn’t prove the carbon tax didn’t increases prices, as many other factors are also at play and the modest price increases might have been even smaller but for the carbon tax.

Many other factors? Hmmm, like what I wonder?

[GaiJin]

Originally Posted by cal_guy

It just so happens that UofC Assistant Professor Trevor Tombe and University of Ottawa Associate Professor Nicholas Rivers went ahead and model the indirect costs of the Carbon Tax using Statistics Canada's Social Policy Simulation Database and Model.

http://www.macleans.ca/economy/econo...ehold-and-why/

Did it double our service prices? No, but the increase in some of the services is substantial, the corporate customer is not going to eat it, its getting passed on. My original point was people have their head stuck in the sand if they think they are escaping the tax because they don't directly use transport companies or large volumes of fuel.