Israel declares war on Hamas

[WCW Nitro]

Originally Posted by blankall

It's more than just militant happening to be living in the same buildings as civilians. It's having actual military headquarters, weapons storage and missile launching sites in and directly around civilians, including hospitals, mosques, and schools:

https://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/offic...st-agency-gaza


Hamas had it set up so that soldiers could attack Israeli civilians with rockets, then run into the, UN funded, school and access a tunnel.

https://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press...ne-its-schools

It's difficult to hold a conversation with people on this subject, when they are in such extreme denial of the basic facts.

I am talking about the wholesale bombing of entire neighborhoods, Israel has dropped more bombs in the past few weeks that the u.s did in Afghanistan for years.So, either Hamas has the greatest number of rockets in the history of armies that requires such an extensive bombing or Israel targets civilians. And as an Israeli official said ,focus is on damage, not accuracy-so it's not hard to understand what's going on.

[Manhattanboy]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Launching attacks from an urban area isn't the same as using human shields. It's guerilla tactics.

Holding hostages in an underground tunnel is also not using human shields, it's keeping the hostages safe to use as leverage.

Going home after launching rockets to your apartment isn't using human shields, it's just having a life outside of being a militant.

Using human shields is literally grabbing your neighbour's family and hiding behind them while you shoot at your enemy.

Is this serious?

It reminds me of the Looney Tunes cartoon where Wile E. Coyote arrives at work in the morning, punches in the time clock, dukes it out with Ralph during the day, and then punches out and goes home to his apartment.

[FlamesAddiction]

Whether or not Hamas uses human shields isn't even up for debate. They admitted back in 2014. Sami Abu Zuhri who is a spokesperson for Hamas was asked in an interview about sending civilians to roof tops of buildings and he claimed it was an effective defense against the "occupier", and that every Jihad loving Palestinian should go to where the bombs are. The interview was from 2014, but I doubt they have become more humane since then.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

I am talking about the wholesale bombing of entire neighborhoods, Israel has dropped more bombs in the past few weeks that the u.s did in Afghanistan for years.So, either Hamas has the greatest number of rockets in the history of armies that requires such an extensive bombing or Israel targets civilians. And as an Israeli official said ,focus is on damage, not accuracy-so it's not hard to understand what's going on.

It's easy to understand, Israel is punishing Gaza for the deaths of its people in horrific fashion, it is exactly what Hamas/Iran planned and wants.

Arab lives are cheap across the middle east, cheap to Arab regimes, Iran and Saudi are fighting to the last Gazan, Syrian, Yamani and Lebanese, what do they care? aint their people dying, if as an Arab you want someone to blame look to Tehran and Riyadh, they are to blame

[Snuffleupagus]

Look folks, Hamas attacked civilians like sub-human savages, a strong response is needed and expected, Hamas knew this and wanted it.

[WCW Nitro]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

It's easy to understand, Israel is punishing Gaza for the deaths of its people in horrific fashion, it is exactly what Hamas/Iran planned and wants.

Arab lives are cheap across the middle east, cheap to Arab regimes, Iran and Saudi are fighting to the last Gazan, Syrian, Yamani and Lebanese, what do they care? aint their people dying, if as an Arab you want someone to blame look to Tehran and Riyadh, they are to blame

I don't know, maybe the country that turned off food and water to millions and builds settlements in places where there is no Hamas deserves the blame, not what other countries may or may not want.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

I don't know, maybe the country that turned off food and water to millions and builds settlements in places where there is no Hamas deserves the blame, not what other countries may or may not want.

Egypt?

[TherapyforGlencross]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

I don't know, maybe the country that turned off food and water to millions and builds settlements in places where there is no Hamas deserves the blame, not what other countries may or may not want.

Do you think both sides are to blame or is it the fault of one existent party? Do you think Hamas has any blame in this? If Israel were to stop settlements, are you satisfied with the land Palestine currently has? Do you think the two people can live in harmony?

[WCW Nitro]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Egypt?

I didn't know Egypt controlled Gaza's water and was building settlements in the West Bank. Oh and of course Egyptian guards were accidentally hit the day after Egypt allowed some aid to go in.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

I don't know, maybe the country that turned off food and water to millions and builds settlements in places where there is no Hamas deserves the blame, not what other countries may or may not want.

Look you can blame Israel all you like, it makes no difference to them, they don't care, they will do what they do, their response is predictable and if you believe they are the blood thirsty land stealing thugs that you imply (and I dont even entirely disagree with) then you dont attack them in horrific fashion that does nothing for your people but get them killed

This whole event is Hama's plan and fault, no one elses, it is what Hamas wants

[WCW Nitro]

Originally Posted by TherapyforGlencross

Do you think both sides are to blame or is it the fault of one existent party? Do you think Hamas has any blame in this? If Israel were to stop settlements, are you satisfied with the land Palestine currently has? Do you think the two people can live in harmony?

Of course Hamas some blame in this, but overall for the past few decades Israel has clearly been the aggressor imo. As for the borders, 1967 borders and an acknowledgement from both sides about the legitimacy of the other.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

I didn't know Egypt controlled Gaza's water and was building settlements in the West Bank. Oh and of course Egyptian guards were accidentally hit the day after Egypt allowed some aid to go in.

Gaza was part of Egypt, they were offered it back by Israel and refused to take it, not giving a flying #### about Palestinians after all, they could allow food water and fuel across their border but never have.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

Of course Hamas some blame in this, but overall for the past few decades Israel has clearly been the aggressor imo. As for the borders, 1967 borders and an acknowledgement from both sides about the legitimacy of the other.

the most that Israel might give is what Arabs have now, that's it and there is nothing anyone can do to change that, if you want a life for Gazans come up with a plan that gives them a life under the status quo, education, immigration, economic development of the little they have.

Is that fair? no, but it's all they will ever have and if they care about their kids as more than sacrifices then they have to accept it.

[Azure]

Am I the only one who thinks if the people of Palestine would rise up against Hamas that the entire world would be there to support them?

Of course many would die, but it would likely be less than are dying now.

Everyone knows that Hamas is stealing all the money & aid meant for the people and using it to build tunnels & weapons to attack Israel.

Why don't the people of Palestine, who everyone keeps claiming don't actually support Hamas rise up against them and take back Gaza?

[WCW Nitro]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Look you can blame Israel all you like, it makes no difference to them, they don't care, they will do what they do, their response is predictable and if you believe they are the blood thirsty land stealing thugs that you imply (and I dont even entirely disagree with) then you dont attack them in horrific fashion that does nothing for your people but get them killed

This whole event is Hama's plan and fault, no one elses, it is what Hamas wants

That's fine, all I am saying is that this narrative that Israel goes to great lengths to not target civilians and is just fighting Hamas is laughable.

[Manhattanboy]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

the most that Israel might give is what Arabs have now, that's it and there is nothing anyone can do to change that, if you want a life for Gazans come up with a plan that gives them a life under the status quo, education, immigration, economic development of the little they have.

Is that fair? no, but it's all they will ever have and if they care about their kids as more than sacrifices then they have to accept it.

When Israel pulled out of Gaza they left the then ruling Fatah party with completed homes, farms, greenhouses, schools and other infrastructure.

The plan was properly named "Gaza First" meaning that resolution of the issues in the West Bank (land exchanges etc.) would follow.

Gaza First included plans for Palestinian/Israeli joint ventures in air and sea ports and free trade with Israel. Tens of thousands of good paying jobs would be created.

When Hamas took over they literally stated they had no interest in building the Singapore of the Middle East.

They were successful however in building the most elaborate underground smuggling network in the world.

The average Palestinian in Gaza must be so very proud of what Hamas has created since the occupiers pulled out.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

This was talked about early in the conflict. Discourse plays a very important role in war and perceptions of it. I think semantic arguments are valid for that reason.

The public conscious of 1st world countries is that the civilian causality risk of intense bombing campaigns is acceptable.

Truth is, Isreal could or any other 1st world air force could kill millions of people without ever having too look them in the eyes.

The prospect of that is horrific and worth debating in times of peace and war. I think we've forgotten how good we've become at killing.

Absolutely. Semantic arguments are valid, and any time killing innocent people is being justified, that justification should receive the utmost scrutiny we can muster.

“Human shields” is not a justification without limits and conditions that make it acceptable. Nor is a terrorist attack carte blanche to respond in any manner the attacked see fit.

I think anyone who dismisses these questions or conversations as semantics (or worse, trolling), is in the wrong. We should always question them.

In the past few weeks I’ve seen an Israeli baby who was burnt to death by Hamas and a Palestinian baby who was blown in half by an IDF bomb. If someone is going to say with a straight face that one is right and one is wrong, we should at least be able to questions the justifications that decided one of those was right. And “they made me do it” is about as piss-poor of an excuse there is.

Because, quite honestly, they looked equally horrific to me.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

That's fine, all I am saying is that this narrative that Israel goes to great lengths to not target civilians and is just fighting Hamas is laughable.

Yes I agree and guess what? no one cares in reality, we didnt care when we bombed the tar out of Iraq either, war sucks, kids die, in all conflicts kids always die.

No one cares here, no one cares in the middle east, Palestinians are just useful pawns for the endless conflict between Shia and Sunni at this point, they are a useful balance for Iran for the 400,000 dead Houthi that no one cares about either

If you want to make Gazan's lives better help them leave

[WCW Nitro]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

When Israel pulled out of Gaza they left the then ruling Fatah party with completed homes, farms, greenhouses, schools and other infrastructure.

The plan was properly named "Gaza First" meaning that resolution of the issues in the West Bank (land exchanges etc.) would follow.

Gaza First included plans for Palestinian/Israeli joint ventures in air and sea ports and free trade with Israel. Tens of thousands of good paying jobs would be created.

When Hamas took over they literally stated they had no interest in building the Singapore of the Middle East.

They were successful however in building the most elaborate underground smuggling network in the world.

The average Palestinian in Gaza must be so very proud of what Hamas has created since the occupiers pulled out.

Israel "disengagement" from Gaza was in the words of Israeli officials a plan to prevent a Palestinian state since now effort could be focused on settlements in more strategic,less populated areas. It was also not a full transfer of control over water,air, etc to the Palestinians.

[WCW Nitro]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Yes I agree and guess what? no one cares in reality, we didnt care when we bombed the tar out of Iraq either, war sucks, kids die, in all conflicts kids always die.

No one cares here, no one cares in the middle east, Palestinians are just useful pawns for the endless conflict between Shia and Sunni at this point, they are a useful balance for Iran for the 400,000 dead Houthi that no one cares about either

If you want to make Gazan's lives better help them leave

I don't understand the point you are trying to make, are you saying no one should bring up Israeli war crimes since it's a given that's what it does?