Alberta Politics Thread

[GGG]

The other piece of it is emissions should go with the end user of the product. Canada's emissions from exported oil shouldn't be Canada's and China's emissions from exporting steal and clothes to Canada should be our emissions.

This way each country could tax imports to make carbon nuetral competition and allow exports to countries without a carbon policy not to be penalized.

Essentially we should put carbon duties on all imported fruit, clothes, food, furniture etc, and give tax breaks to our exporters.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Igniter

Instead of a carbon tax... it should be viewed as a price of carbon... to some maybe it means the same thing, but to me the difference is as simple as the government forcing you to pay them for something vs the market dictating the cost of producing for something. Let the market adapt and create jobs, without the outright destruction of the economy. An economy does NOT suddenly create all these green jobs like politicians and governments promise.

Again. It's not about not reducing our emissions. It's about reducing them in a manner that doesn't put us at a competitive disadvantage within the world economy and doesn't destroy some of the largest contributors to this province's and country's economy.

Or hey, let's stop generating power from coal and producing from the oil-sands immediately, watch our economy get even worse than it is today and get a pat on the back from the US and the rest of the world. All while they secretly laugh at us as they continue to produce oil and gas in record numbers and producer power from coal.

This is the biggest issue right now. Ontario thought they were the smartest kids in the room, and Wynne promised that green jobs would entirely boost the economy. Instead they created I think 20,000 green jobs and lost 200,000 manufacturing sector jobs.

Its not as organic as people think.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Igniter

I have no issues with the Carbon Tax. I am not in the do nothing group. However, I do have severe problems with how we go about reducing our footprint.

Personally, I would have announced a carbon tax with an implementation date of a couple years into the future. This would allow companies to pragmatically approach the problem and upgrade/retrofit/change areas of their businesses that would be hardest hit. It also gives them a decent shot at reducing their emissions substantially before they ever have to start paying the tax.

For example: a coal power plant could study and implement a carbon capture system well before the tax is implemented, thereby not paying a government money that doesn't put it all directly into sustainable development. Knowing full well what the carbon tax would cost them, they will have spent capital to "save" money.

Not saying that coal plants are going to survive... but replace "coal" with a "natural gas" and the same scenario could apply.

Or trucking companies who have been studying converting to LNG or CNG systems, knowing what the tax will do to the cost of diesel, decide to convert. The infrastructure of NG filling stations is built over this time period as well, and the company sees no significant interruption into their normal operations. They will end up paying a price for their services, but it will be smaller as they have switched to a lower carbon fuel.

Instead of a carbon tax... it should be viewed as a price of carbon... to some maybe it means the same thing, but to me the difference is as simple as the government forcing you to pay them for something vs the market dictating the cost of producing for something. Let the market adapt and create jobs, without the outright destruction of the economy. An economy does NOT suddenly create all these green jobs like politicians and governments promise.

Again. It's not about not reducing our emissions. It's about reducing them in a manner that doesn't put us at a competitive disadvantage within the world economy and doesn't destroy some of the largest contributors to this province's and country's economy.

Or hey, let's stop generating power from coal and producing from the oil-sands immediately, watch our economy get even worse than it is today and get a pat on the back from the US and the rest of the world. All while they secretly laugh at us as they continue to produce oil and gas in record numbers and producer power from coal.

Completely agreed.

If the ultimate goal of the Carbon tax was to actually reduce GHG and emissions then setting the goal and allowing businesses and systems to work their way there makes more sense.

But now unfortunately, all available funds will be so tied up in paying the immediate increase in expenses that they wont have the resources to do a slower, more sustainable decrease in emissions.

Its almost as thought the Carbon tax isnt about the Carbon or emissions at all, almost as if its like a tax where it isnt designed to lower emissions but rather increase Provincial general revenue?

Hmm...isnt that something?

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by GGG

The other piece of it is emissions should go with the end user of the product. Canada's emissions from exported oil shouldn't be Canada's and China's emissions from exporting steal and clothes to Canada should be our emissions.

This way each country could tax imports to make carbon nuetral competition and allow exports to countries without a carbon policy not to be penalized.

Essentially we should put carbon duties on all imported fruit, clothes, food, furniture etc, and give tax breaks to our exporters.

Except that the trade would kill us economically. Also china would just ramp up their current very protectionist trade laws and use it to shuffle off their carbon.

[Handsome B. Wonderful]

Originally Posted by Makarov

I honestly can't think of an issue that is currently more relevant to the Alberta Politics thread than the carbon tax and climate change.

Alberta politics is relevant to Canada's emissions per capita compared to Europe or some third world country or whatever garbage Tinordi is foaming at the mouth about? Don't answer that, it's a facetious question.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by Handsome B. Wonderful

Alberta politics is relevant to Canada's emissions per capita compared to Europe or some third world country or whatever garbage Tinordi is foaming at the mouth about? Don't answer that, it's a facetious question.

Yes. Feel free to reply because that's a sincere answer!

[cal_guy]

Originally Posted by Locke

Completely agreed.

If the ultimate goal of the Carbon tax was to actually reduce GHG and emissions then setting the goal and allowing businesses and systems to work their way there makes more sense.

But now unfortunately, all available funds will be so tied up in paying the immediate increase in expenses that they wont have the resources to do a slower, more sustainable decrease in emissions.

Its almost as thought the Carbon tax isnt about the Carbon or emissions at all, almost as if its like a tax where it isnt designed to lower emissions but rather increase Provincial general revenue?

Hmm...isnt that something?

You appear to be advocating for a cap and trade system which is the less efficient more complex version of a carbon tax.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by cal_guy

You appear to be advocating for a cap and trade system which is the less efficient more complex version of a carbon tax.

I dont have a problem with the Carbon Tax in its ideology, simply its execution. Give people a chance to diversify their energy requirements.

Its not a ticking time-bomb, you cant rush energy diversification, it doesnt work that way.

Unless you're banking on all the sweet cash you're going to bank because people have no choice because you rushed the entire process.

[GaiJin]

Originally Posted by Locke

Unless you're banking on all the sweet cash you're going to bank because people have no choice because you rushed the entire process.

Ding, we have a winner.

[CliffFletcher]

Interesting piece on the CBC just now where environmental groups are opposing the proposed pipeline in New Brunswick. It seems the carbon tax and other initiatives of the Alberta NPD has bought the province zero social license. Environmental groups will continue to oppose the oil and gas industry in every way and in every place. Which was entirely predictable to anyone using their brain. Social license is not an actual thing.

[Resolute 14]

Yup. Only a complete moron would have expected that anything Notley does would buy a "social license".

When you look at how much money and effort is being spent to oppose Canadian oil production and how little is being spent to oppose American oil production, you know where the money is coming from. Environmentalists are convenient patsys in what is actually corporate espionage. And Notley and Trudeau are both stupid enough to fall for it.

[CaptainCrunch]

At this point, we should just shut everything down, do nothing, don't push for a pipeline and become a complete economic basket case problem. Quebec and Ontario won't be able to get equalization dollars and crash completely and then they'll whine for us to start pumping again.

Like i said before, Canada is no longer a country of cooperation. Its not about the environment for them, its about money, same as the environmental groups and the native groups who have become well paid mercenaries for funding groups being helped by the American and Saudi Oil industries.

Unless we write generous checks and sell our souls to the other provinces no environmental platform is going to allow those pipelines to be built.

Shut it down, lets siphon off of the rest of the country for a few years and see how they like that.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

At this point, we should just shut everything down, do nothing, don't push for a pipeline and become a complete economic basket case problem. Quebec and Ontario won't be able to get equalization dollars and crash completely and then they'll whine for us to start pumping again.

Like i said before, Canada is no longer a country of cooperation. Its not about the environment for them, its about money, same as the environmental groups and the native groups who have become well paid mercenaries for funding groups being helped by the American and Saudi Oil industries.

Unless we write generous checks and sell our souls to the other provinces no environmental platform is going to allow those pipelines to be built.

Shut it down, lets siphon off of the rest of the country for a few years and see how they like that.

Sometimes I feel like we live in entirely different worlds. For example, I have never seen even a shred of credible evidence that American and Saudi oil interests have co-opted Canadian first nations or environmental groups. What have I missed?

[GaiJin]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Interesting piece on the CBC just now where environmental groups are opposing the proposed pipeline in New Brunswick. It seems the carbon tax and other initiatives of the Alberta NPD has bought the province zero social license. Environmental groups will continue to oppose the oil and gas industry in every way and in every place. Which was entirely predictable to anyone using their brain. Social license is not an actual thing.

http://business.financialpost.com/fp...n-actual-thing

[lucky1]

Originally Posted by para transit fellow

I think Sheppard is a more complex power plant, one that uses the waste heat to run a secondary turbine, similar to the Calpine plant built in Balzac

However, The Nexen power plant in Balzac was a simple gas turbine with no extra heat recovery and took only a couple of years to build start to finis (the biggest challenge is ordering the gas furbine).

Enmax's crossfield plant similarly took only a couple of years to put online

FYI. About 1.5 gigawatts of generation capacity has been built in the Calgary region since the de regulation of electricity

nah, not true - Nexen Power Station is a true combined cycle plant - 2X45MW Aeroderivative LM6000 Gas Turbines exhausting into 2 OTSG's (once thru boilers) - steam used to drive a single 25MW Steam turbine. Identical plant out in Strathmore -

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by Makarov

Sometimes I feel like we live in entirely different worlds. For example, I have never seen even a shred of credible evidence that American and Saudi oil interests have co-opted Canadian first nations or environmental groups. What have I missed?

You've missed a bit. It's fairly common knowledge that, among many other groups, the Rockefellers fund all kinds of anti oil sands initiatives including first nations, Canadian environments organizations and other activist groups. They also purchase mayors for large cities. You can foip yourself some tax returns if you want to get jiggy with it. Danielle Smith had a great piece on this a couple days ago.

http://fairquestions.typepad.com/rethink_campaigns/

Opps. It was US Tides foundation that bought themselves a mayor.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

You've missed a bit. It's fairly common knowledge that, among many other groups, the Rockefellers fund all kinds of anti oil sands initiatives including first nations, Canadian environments organizations and other activist groups. They also purchase mayors for large cities. You can foip yourself some tax returns if you want to get jiggy with it. Danielle Smith had a great piece on this a couple days ago.

http://fairquestions.typepad.com/rethink_campaigns/

Opps. It was US Tides foundation that bought themselves a mayor.

Amazing. The first source that you provided to support the contention that US interests have co-opted some significant portion of Canadian first nations and environmental organizations concludes as follows: in recent years, between 5% and 6% of the Suzuki Foundation's donations come from foreign (non-Canadian) individuals and organizations.

Amazing. What a scandal. Its a smoking gun.

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by Makarov

Amazing. The first source that you provided to support the contention that US interests have co-opted some significant portion of Canadian first nations and environmental organizations concludes as follows: in recent years, between 5% and 6% of the Suzuki Foundation's donations come from foreign (non-Canadian) individuals and organizations.

Amazing. What a scandal. Its a smoking gun.

That's what you got from that? There are dozens and dozens of articles there. You picked one and that's all you need to know? There are easier ways to not change your mind you know.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

That's what you got from that? There are dozens and dozens of articles there. You picked one and that's all you need to know? There are easier ways to not change your mind you know.

Strange. The first time I clicked on your link it took me directly to an article specifically about the Suzuki Foundation funding. When I clicked on it this morning, it took me somewhere else. I'll have to look at it again.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

That's what you got from that? There are dozens and dozens of articles there. You picked one and that's all you need to know? There are easier ways to not change your mind you know.

Alright, I just finished read her summary. She claims that, since 2000' "USA foundations have poured $300 million into the Canadian environmental movement."

According to the following report (see page 9), Canadian environmental nonprofits recieved approximately $300 million in public donations (including from foundations) in 2010 alone: https://www.charityintelligence.ca/i..._in_canada.pdf. Further, public donations represented less than one third of their total revenue.

So, even if one were to presume that every single dollar donated by a "USA foundation" was done so in a naked attempt to buy influence and subvert Canadian economic interests, it would represent roughly 7% of total public donations over that period and roughly 2% of total revenue for Canadian environmental non-profits.

It is preposterous to draw the conclusion from this that Canadian environmental groups and first nations have been co-opted in some sort of widespread way by US economic interests. In fact, un light of those numbers, I don't even think its a plausible theory.