Sam Bennett Value: Have the Flames held on TOO long? OR is he awesome?

[SportsJunky]

I still can't get behind Bennett as a C.
A line with him, looch and Dube can be fun (and infuriating) to watch though.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by calculoso

Bennett needs to look in the mirror, as does the coaching staff. Especially in the past few games, any time Bennett is on the 3rd line with Lucic and Dube, he has jump and seems to care. He then plays a shift on the 4th line with Janko and Rieder, and is lazy, has no energy, and seems to be the worst of the three.

It seems to come down to motivation. Bennett being out worked by Rieder says a lot. He elevates his game with better players, but it doesn’t seem to last very long. Hopefully he gets his head sorted out, as his skills come through. It just doesn’t happen enough for the effort to be trusted though, IMO.

I would disagree with that. Outside of the occasional burst of speed from Rieder, I'd say all three are equally useless when played together - although Bennett actually finishes checks while Jankowski just does that lame "i'm in the forecheck, let me kinda pretend to hit that guy...ah he's gone, I'll just cycle back to my position" crap.

It doesn't seem to last very long because he doesn't get to play there very long. There was no reason to knock Bennett back to 4th line winger when Ryan returned from having the flu.

[Itse]

Would Bennett produce better with better linemates? Obviously.

Who cares? So would literally every other player in the league.

When has Bennett ever significantly outproduced his competition in the same position? Does anyone see his production go up with him?

I mean, if the guys he's playing with are beneath him, why doesn't he look better than them? Why doesn't he stand out in points production?

[DeluxeMoustache]

Cory Sarich was talking about linemates and stability. He said it is incredibly difficult to play at a top level when you don’t know who you are playing with from day to day

You can not argue that Bennett has had consistent linemates since his rookie year.

It’s that simple. I hope for his sake that he requests a trade.

[JJolg]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Cory Sarich was talking about linemates and stability. He said it is incredibly difficult to play at a top level when you don’t know who you are playing with from day to day

You can not argue that Bennett has had consistent linemates since his rookie year.

It’s that simple. I hope for his sake that he requests a trade.

This, its about player development. We've invested more stability in making sure Mangiapane is a top six player than Bennett and thats just poor asset management

[The Fonz]

Originally Posted by Itse

Would Bennett produce better with better linemates? Obviously.

Who cares? So would literally every other player in the league.

When has Bennett ever significantly outproduced his competition in the same position? Does anyone see his production go up with him?

I mean, if the guys he's playing with are beneath him, why doesn't he look better than them? Why doesn't he stand out in points production?

And when he plays with better linemates, those better players see declines in production.

Let's just be real here. If Sam Bennett were drafted in the 4th round instead of 4th overall, there wouldn't even be a debate. He'd be accepted for what he is, a bottom six utility player.

The only reason there is still hope that he can establish himself as a top 6 forward, is because value is still be given to draft position. You look at what Mangiapane has consistently shown in his ~100 games as an NHL'er, and Bennett hasn't come anywhere close to that, in terms of generating offensive chances.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Cory Sarich was talking about linemates and stability. He said it is incredibly difficult to play at a top level when you don’t know who you are playing with from day to day

You can not argue that Bennett has had consistent linemates since his rookie year.

It’s that simple. I hope for his sake that he requests a trade.

Again another excuse that could be said for every other guy in the bottom 6.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by The Fonz

And when he plays with better linemates, those better players see declines in production.

Let's just be real here. If Sam Bennett were drafted in the 4th round instead of 4th overall, there wouldn't even be a debate. He'd be accepted for what he is, a bottom six utility player.

The only reason there is still hope that he can establish himself as a top 6 forward, is because value is still be given to draft position. You look at what Mangiapane has consistently shown in his ~100 games as an NHL'er, and Bennett hasn't come anywhere close to that, in terms of generating offensive chances.

Again, Bennett has not had significant time consistently playing with good linemates.

They have had such different standards in their treatment it is not even close

Mangiapane was on a streak of 11 games with zero (0) points and the org still stapled him to Tkachuk.

Are you telling us that, at that particular point in time, Mangiapane was productive and effective?

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Itse

Again another excuse that could be said for every other guy in the bottom 6.

I don’t know what you are trying to say

People on the fourth line, given fourth line linemates and minutes, produce like fourth liners

The people expecting him to produce like a second liner with fourth line deployment are out to lunch

[Flash Walken]

I find it so interesting how this discussion has popped up again after lucic and dube have a whale of a game on the third line.

Bennett is on pace for 19 points over 82 games. Lucic has 20 points right now. Derek Ryan has 29 points. 10 goals.

29 points would be the second best season of Bennett's career. Dube has 16 points in 45 games.

How would Bennett supplanting any of those guys make a material improvement to the roster?

I've always understood people sensing there was more there from Bennett in previous years but it's so weird to me to see this thread pop up now.

[Kovaz]

I think it's definitely a chicken-and-egg problem. But the guy's been buried with #### linemates since his second year, and it takes more than a 5-10 game stretch on the wing once or twice a season to turn that around. Even in his rookie year, he only spent 23% of his ice time with Backlund-Frolik, and no more than 5% with any other combo, half on the wing and half at C. And then ever since he failed to produce with the corpse of Troy Brouwer stapled to his hip as a 20 year old C, he's been bounced up and down the lineup from wing to C to wing. Even that season, once Alex Chiasson replaced Brouwer down the stretch that line was damn solid and was excellent in the playoffs. Alex ####ing Chiasson being an upgrade says all you need to know about his linemates.

Sure, Bennett isn't blameless here. He tries to do too much and doesn't use his linemates. But does anyone honestly think spending crucial formative years watching clean passes clank off Brouwer's stick right to a defender had no impact on that? Or watching Jankowski meekly pretend to forecheck after you dump the puck in? You tell a guy "we need you to produce" and give him useless linemates and limited ice time - what do you think is gonna happen?

[BigRed]

Originally Posted by JJolg

This, its about player development. We've invested more stability in making sure Mangiapane is a top six player than Bennett and thats just poor asset management

Mangiapane is a better player than Bennett based on awareness and the ability to use his linemates. He was the obvious choice to invest in because he has the hockey smarts to enhance the players around him as well as benefit from them himself.

As someone in this thread not so long ago, Bennett is the classic all the tools, no toolbox player. Doesn't think or see the game well enough to bring it all together. That's why Mangiapane is a top 6 player and Bennett is not.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by BigRed

Mangiapane is a better player than Bennett based on awareness and the ability to use his linemates. He was the obvious choice to invest in because he has the hockey smarts to enhance the players around him as well as benefit from them himself.

As someone in this thread not so long ago, Bennett is the classic all the tools, no toolbox player. Doesn't think or see the game well enough to bring it all together. That's why Mangiapane is a top 6 player and Bennett is not.

Mangiapane has a very good nose for the net. He knows where to be and he uses his linemates very well. Bennett is the exact opposite of that. How many times have I seen Bennett win a battle on the boards and then pass the puck to nobody only to see a turnover.

I like Bennett on the team, but he's not providing you anything more than an Anson Carter type knock in the easy goals benefit. Even then, there are much better shooters than Bennett to file that role. It's arguable that Lucic has been doing a better job of that than Bennett this year.

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I find it so interesting how this discussion has popped up again after lucic and dube have a whale of a game on the third line.

Bennett is on pace for 19 points over 82 games. Lucic has 20 points right now. Derek Ryan has 29 points. 10 goals.

29 points would be the second best season of Bennett's career. Dube has 16 points in 45 games.

How would Bennett supplanting any of those guys make a material improvement to the roster?

I've always understood people sensing there was more there from Bennett in previous years but it's so weird to me to see this thread pop up now.

Because I feel with Bennett with Dube and as well Lucic if they drop Ryan to the fourth line would make all the players consistently produce more often together. I feel there's chemesity there that can work. We have recent evidence that it does since a month ago Bennett was there linemates for several games, and they were productive. And he also was in his natural position, rather than being a winger where he's less effective. Look how that worked for Backlund?

I don't think it's that weird.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

I don’t know what you are trying to say

People on the fourth line, given fourth line linemates and minutes, produce like fourth liners

The people expecting him to produce like a second liner with fourth line deployment are out to lunch

Nobody expects him to produce like a top six player.

They expect him to outproduce his competition in the bottom 6, or at the very least look better than the rest while doing it.

The last two seasons he was outpaced by Mark Jankowski and this season he's been outpaced by Milan Lucic, and basically matches with Tobias Rieder. None of those guys are fed top six opportunities either.

What exactly is special about Sam Bennett?

I haven't seen you produce any worthwhile argument to demonstrate there's anything wrong with how he's been utilized.

As for his agent, I would imagine Sam Bennett is extremely happy to be paid significantly better than other similar guys on the same team, and better than most RFA's with his point production, AND have a contract for next season too.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Joborule

Because I feel with Bennett with Dube and as well Lucic if they drop Ryan to the fourth line would make all the players consistently produce more often together. I feel there's chemesity there that can work. We have recent evidence that it does since a month ago Bennett was there linemates for several games, and they were productive. And he also was in his natural position, rather than being a winger where he's less effective. Look how that worked for Backlund?

I don't think it's that weird.

You think Bennett between lucic and dube would have 29 points right now?

I don't see it at all.

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

You think Bennett between lucic and dube would have 29 points right now?

I don't see it at all.

That's where you and I differ. I think it possible that Bennett could be having more than that. Of course impossible to answer unless they actually are on a line together for a significant period of time to find out.

I think Bennett's ability and style of play is incredibly limited with 4th line minutes though. I believe that Bingo at some point this season posted corsi stats that Bennett is really good at producing or getting within high danger chances, or something along that extent. Getting the 3rd least minutes per night I don't think works in the Flames best interest if his advance stats throughout the season indicates he can develop offensive chances. He's being neutralized by players that cannot translate those developments into goals.

If Bennett was on the ice more along with Lucic and Dube, thus getting the same minutes they are getting (or close to), I believe Bennett would producing more than we've seen from him, and his linemates would be as well; rather than him bringing their play down. I think those three together complement each other very well.

[Manhattanboy]

You have to think the Flames will move on from Bennett, and depending on how the next three weeks unfold, Monahan as well?

[Flash Walken]

Well I guess I don't think a hunch is enough to dismiss 200+ games of experience.

I wonder if Bennett is an advanced stats darling for the flames stats system like Ryan? If he was you'd think the third head coach in 2 years would play him like it.

What I'm saying is there is basically 0 evidence at all that Bennett positively impacts the team results by getting more icetime, and the organization has a deep desire to see him find success yet he still can't find himself in positions to be successful.

Do the flames still have a losing record this year when he plays more than 14 minutes a game? Do they still have a winning record when he plays less than 12 or 13?

Is this the Calgary flames or the Calgary Bennett's?

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

You have to think the Flames will move on from Bennett, and depending on how the next three weeks unfold, Monahan as well?

I really don’t think that team management is smoking the same stuff as CP