Israel declares war on Hamas

[FormerPresJamesTaylor]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

If Israel were really bombing indiscriminately, that figure would be 50k+.

Great...?

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Hamas is operating out of 40 km x 10 km built-up area. Ukraine’s military is spread out over a vastly, vastly larger area. They also don’t deliberately base their military units, artillery, etc. in and around dense civilian infrastructure.

But it is worth considering why some civilians killed in war seem to matter more than others. For example, why does the public in the West (and in the Arab world, as far as I can see) care far, far more about dead Palestinians than dead Yemeni? 375k dead and counting, and almost zero media coverage of it or public protests.

Fair question.

I think maybe we have more skin in this game? Israel is generally supported by western governments (our tax dollars) and many westerners, so maybe we feel sense of responsibility a little more, or that our voice/position can make a difference. We have some influence on how things progress in Israel or how they act maybe, so that compels us to really think about the situation and try to come up with our version of the ideal response?

Yemen is a civil war, isn't it? I don't feel like we have any stake in Yemen or influence. I don't feel like any of our policies or support have contributed in any way to that war, but I'm 100% ignorant on their situation so I could be totally wrong, which definitely brings it right back to your question.

A life in Yemen is as valuable as a life anywhere else. Why don't we care more? I guess the media (social and professional) hasn't really fed me anything about that war so I dgaf.

It's a cold world, eh.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Fair question.

I think maybe we have more skin in this game? Israel is generally supported by western governments (our tax dollars) and many westerners, so maybe we feel sense of responsibility a little more, or that our voice/position can make a difference. We have some influence on how things progress in Israel or how they act maybe, so that compels us to really think about the situation and try to come up with our version of the ideal response?

Yemen is a civil war, isn't it? I don't feel like we have any stake in Yemen or influence. I don't feel like any of our policies or support have contributed in any way to that war, but I'm 100% ignorant on their situation so I could be totally wrong, which definitely brings it right back to your question.

A life in Yemen is as valuable as a life anywhere else. Why don't we care more? I guess the media (social and professional) hasn't really fed me anything about that war so I dgaf.

It's a cold world, eh.

Canada consistently gives humanitarian aid to the Palestinians. They do not give financial support of any kind to Israel.

[Bill Bumface]

I'd like to know what is different about Israel's actions in response to a terror attack this time that will result in a different outcome then the other 50 times.

This is like Hamas renewing the lease on their leadership. "Oh, the peasants are starting to question if we are good for them? Better go for a renewal, get the rockets and paragliders out."

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

I'd like to know what is different about Israel's actions in response to a terror attack this time that will result in a different outcome then the other 50 times.

This is like Hamas renewing the lease on their leadership. "Oh, the peasants are starting to question if we are good for them? Better go for a renewal, get the rockets and paragliders out."

Israel has never acted to remove the Hamas leadership, in its entirety, in the past. Similarly, the actions of Hamas have far exceeded anything they have done in the past. This is new territory for both sides.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Israel is generally supported by western governments (our tax dollars) and many westerners, so maybe we feel sense of responsibility a little more, or that our voice/position can make a difference. We have some influence on how things progress in Israel or how they act maybe, so that compels us to really think about the situation and try to come up with our version of the ideal response?

As blankall points out, Canada does not financially support Israel. The U.S. does. But they also provided $54.6 billion of military support to Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates (the countries behind one of the sides in Yemen) from 2015 to 2021.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Yeah, but see… they could kill more. And that’s a good thing. That means they’re showing restraint and doing things correctly, because they could kill more.

It’s like the “You wanna see genocide? If Israel wanted to, they could REALLY commit genocide!”

It doesn’t matter that they’re killing Palestinians at a far higher rate than Russia is in Ukraine or the US was in the war on terror. It’s that they could kill even more if they wanted to, so… kudos to Israel.

Probably also helps that Ukrainians can actually run away from war fronts. Gazans are pinned down by Israel, Egypt and their own God damned leadership.

I think it's an incredibly weak point comparing the two wars, which have nothing in common with each other.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

As blankall points out, Canada does not financially support Israel. The U.S. does. But they also provided $54.6 billion of military support to Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates (the countries behind one of the sides in Yemen) from 2015 to 2021.

Those are sales through the Foreign Military Sales program though, not something they're giving. The $54.6B is made up of US government-approved weapons sales as well as support and training that those countries paid the US military and contractors for. The whole point of the FMS program is that it doesn't cost taxpayers anything, because the countries that receive it pay for it all. That's not really comparable to the several billion dollars in direct support that Israel receives annually (which covers about 15% of their defense spending).

[blankall]

Originally Posted by opendoor

Those are sales through the Foreign Military Sales program though, not something they're giving. The $54.6B is made up of US government-approved weapons sales as well as support and training that those countries paid the US military and contractors for. The whole point of the FMS program is that it doesn't cost taxpayers anything, because the countries that receive it pay for it all. That's not really comparable to the several billion dollars in direct support that Israel receives annually (which covers about 15% of their defense spending).

The USA's deal with Israel is a regional deal. Israel receives roughly the same amount of aid that is given to Jordan and Egypt. Israel's aid is "military aid" too and used largely to purchase US weapons. So a lot goes directly back into the US economy. Whereas the aid to Jordan and Egypt is largely just cash.

Israel's aid also comes with all sorts of strings attached. The USA vetos Israel deals:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...7/china.israel

The $250-million Phalcon airborne radar system was the first of four that Israel had hoped to sell to China in a package ultimately valued at $1 billion.

Israel also supplies the USA with all sorts of technology they develop. Specifically, radar, computer and drone technology. The relationship is that of a strategic partnership that both benefit from militarily. It's not a simple case of the Western world just giving Israel money. The USA spends almost a trillion dollars a year on its military now What's the value in ensuring you have the best drone technology?

Meanwhile, the $3 billion the USA supplies to Jordan/Egypt, the almost 1 billion to Syria, an the $500 million to the Palestinian Authority just disappears into thin air.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Zevo

They [Israel] responded to a declaration of war by going to war.

Therein lies the problem. You can't declare war against a non-nation state. Did we learn nothing from the past 20 years of watching the United States trapse around the globe starting wars under the banner of "The War on Terror" bull#### and getting their asses handed to them? Terrorism is best managed by police action or handled covertly using your intelligence assets to lead the fight. Surgical strikes are much more effective. Allow Mossad to do their thing and take out Hamas through those means. Cleaner, more effective, saves billions/trillions, and minimizes the potential for collateral damage.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

I think there will be far more Palestinians killed compared to Ukrainians. The Ukrainians are not deliberately using civilians as human shields, whereas Hamas whole strategy is to use Palestinians as human shields.

I don’t see it as being apples to apples.

The real difference is the world opened its arms to Ukrainians, and civilians had a chance to move away from the war zone.

Palestinians are getting bombed in a tin can, no where to go, just hoping the next one doesn't crush their family.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Therein lies the problem. You can't declare war against a non-nation state. Did we learn nothing from the past 20 years of watching the United States trapse around the globe starting wars under the banner of "The War on Terror" bull#### and getting their asses handed to them? Terrorism is best managed by police action or handled covertly using your intelligence assets to lead the fight. Surgical strikes are much more effective. Allow Mossad to do their thing and take out Hamas through those means. Cleaner, more effective, saves billions/trillions, and minimizes the potential for collateral damage.

Hamas is a political party that, following a bloody civil war with the Palestinian Authority, declared its sovereignty over Palestine and has total control over the Gaza Strip. You do not need to recognize a political entity to declare war on it.

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

The real difference is the world opened its arms to Ukrainians, and civilians had a chance to move away from the war zone.

Palestinians are getting bombed in a tin can, no where to go, just hoping the next one doesn't crush their family.

While I don’t disagree with what you are saying, I think that is Ukrainian had used civilians as human shields the casualties would have been much, much higher there. So cowardly to hide behind civilians.

[Manhattanboy]

When did the use of civilian human shields become widely used in modern times?

Invented or just perfected by Palestinian terrorists?

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

When did the use of civilian human shields become widely used in modern times?

Invented or just perfected by Palestinian terrorists?

Wikipedia says it was Gandhi who started it.

[_Q_]

Has the use of human shields ever been verified by an independent body?

It seems like an accusation the pro-israel camp likes to keep trotting out, without much to back it up.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Has the use of human shields ever been verified by an independent body?

It seems like an accusation the pro-israel camp likes to keep trotting out, without much to back it up.

I'm not sure a rational person can dispute it. Hamas has hostages and are hiding in Gaza amongst civilians, this prevents Israel from going in guns blazing. What would you call it?

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Has the use of human shields ever been verified by an independent body?

It seems like an accusation the pro-israel camp likes to keep trotting out, without much to back it up.

What evidence would you accept and I'm not asking to be a dick, just wondering.


I would suggest launching rockets from built up areas would infer human shields.

I think often rockets are launched from high roof tops (but I'm not 100% sure).

[ResAlien]

The human shield thing is this Hamas like literally rolling with civilians to try and not be attacked or is it more a way to say you’re fighting a guerrilla force that’s mixed in with civilians?

The idea of human shields makes the bombing of civilians more palatable I get that but it sort of feels like an excuse for “we have to bomb civilians in order to get who we’re trying to get”

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I'm not sure a rational person can dispute it. Hamas has hostages and are hiding in Gaza amongst civilians, this prevents Israel from going in guns blazing. What would you call it?

But is there anywhere is Gaza that is not full of civilians? 2 million people in 6,020km2. That is an area only a little larger than PEI.

Anywhere hospitable is going to be full of people, those areas are only going to get more dense as bombing continues.