CalgaryNEXT Discussion pt. 2

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

You are including infrastructure costs in that number. The actual facility is closer to $900m. The infrastructure needs to be put in regardless of whether it's CalgaryNext or office/condo developments with the odd public infrastructure piece to make it "livable".

In the latter scenario, the city is paying that and hoping land sales, CRL and business tax recoups it. In the former scenario, the city would also be asked to front it and hope that CRL, remaining land sales, and tax spinoffs to provincial and federal coffers from beer, parking, tickets, etc. come back and reimburse their investment.

It's a bit disingenuous to call those facility costs, but the city would be silly not to try to include those for the purposes of negotiation.

890 is the building
50 is clean up
114 is infrastructure for Calgary next
200ish is financing

At a minimum 1.1 billion is direct Calgary next costs

I broke it down a few pages ago but using the flames numbers in terms of land valuation and CRL revenue the city can have their field house, all of the infrastructure they want to build and 500 million dollars or they can build Calgary Next.

You can give the flames 200 million dollars and still be better off not building Calgary Next.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Few questions here from someone who should have been paying more attention...

First, what is the current likelihood that some version of this gets built in the west downtown location? Only if we get the Olympics, or is it better than 50 50 in any case?

Second, if done, what is the likely completion timeline?

Third, if done, what is the likely impact on property values on Memorial across from the new development?

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by GGG

890 is the building
50 is clean up
114 is infrastructure for Calgary next
200ish is financing

At a minimum 1.1 billion is direct Calgary next costs

I broke it down a few pages ago but using the flames numbers in terms of land valuation and CRL revenue the city can have their field house, all of the infrastructure they want to build and 500 million dollars or they can build Calgary Next.

You can give the flames 200 million dollars and still be better off not building Calgary Next.

Thanks for this.

My view is that infrastructure and clean up are going to happen regardless. Land is pretty much worthless to developers without it.

As for the financing, I didn't realize the borrowing costs on the ~$400-700m that would be borrowed (depending on any cash on hand at the time for the fieldhouse, which I understand is minimal currently) would be that high if the city is accessing their borrowing rates. I don't doubt your numbers, but that is huge if true.

I think it would be interesting to run the numbers on a separate Flames arena, Stamps/UofC/soccer Stadium similar to Regina and Winnipeg (maybe a bit bigger/better), and Fieldhouse. There's very little doubt that Calgary needs the second two facilities (the Flames are pretty much covering their own arena costs), and the second two facilities don't get built in Canada without public funds.

[Circa89]

I was able to get a behind the scenes tour of the new Riders Facility in Regina today. Beautiful, beautiful building. I wish the Stamps had something close.
The cost was only $270 Mill.

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by Circa89

I was able to get a behind the scenes tour of the new Riders Facility in Regina today. Beautiful, beautiful building. I wish the Stamps had something close.
The cost was only $270 Mill.

Only?!

[LanceUppercut]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

Only?!

And the team only coughed up 25 million of that. I would vote no on that every day of the week.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

Only?!

Well, if you add it to $450M for a new arena (based on YEG), we're at $670M. Of course, it doesn't result in a new fieldhouse....which has been ballparked at $200M.

$20M cheaper than the Flames prelim number...but this gets you three purpose based facilities instead of the inherent disadvantages of a single combined facility.

Not to say there aren't advantages to the combo, but those are almost entirely to the operator, perhaps at the detriment to user experience. For instance, it would suck getting to/from the fieldhouse ~50 nights a year (Hitmen, Roughnecks), and absolute hell another 60 (Flames, concerts). Admittedly, only for a window of about 6-7:30 and 9:30-11...aka the prime times for the public to go/leave the fieldhouse.

[Circa89]

Originally Posted by LanceUppercut

And the team only coughed up 25 million of that. I would vote no on that every day of the week.

Personally I would vote 10 x yes out of 10.
I don't care if the Province/ Feds/ City along with Murray Edwards/ Flames spent 2 billion building a hockey/ Football/ floorball/ pingpong mega structure what difference does it mean to me?

1) I would enjoy seeing ping-pong in a world class stadium.
2) Calgary could have some civic pride knowing they do not have the absolute worst CFL and NHL areas in the Country/ League.
3) Does not affect funding for the arts/ homeless/ foreign policy .
4) taxes go up, as they inevitably do, regardless if we get these facilities or not. see carbon tax...


If the rest of Canada can "afford" these new stadiums, surely Alberta can too. No?

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by Circa89

Personally I would vote 10 x yes out of 10.
I don't care if the Province/ Feds/ City along with Murray Edwards/ Flames spent 2 billion building a hockey/ Football/ floorball/ pingpong mega structure what difference does it mean to me?

1) I would enjoy seeing ping-pong in a world class stadium.
2) Calgary could have some civic pride knowing they do not have the absolute worst CFL and NHL areas in the Country/ League.
3) Does not affect funding for the arts/ homeless/ foreign policy .
4) taxes go up, as they inevitably do, regardless if we get these facilities or not. see carbon tax...


If the rest of Canada can "afford" these new stadiums, surely Alberta can too. No?

I know you're trolling but I absolutely do not care about this. This is coming from someone who frequents both of those buildings 30+ times a year.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by rage2

Interesting tidbit, MSG has to move in 7 years for Penn Station expansion. Pretty crazy seeing as they just dropped $1B in renovations 3 years ago. Probably cost another $1B to rebuild at a new site.

Wait, doesn't that mean they'll have to start building a new stadium by like 2020? So wouldn't they have to have plans pretty much underway in the next couple years?

That's pretty crazy to be doing after a $1bil renovation.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Circa89

I was able to get a behind the scenes tour of the new Riders Facility in Regina today. Beautiful, beautiful building. I wish the Stamps had something close.
The cost was only $270 Mill.

270 didn't include financing costs or I believe the costs of the CP rail yard clean up. Someone would have to confirm.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

It has been more than four months since the notion of building a new National Hockey League arena in Calgary has been discussed publicly by any of the stakeholders.

However, such silence should not be confused for inactivity or apathy.

Nor is it a product of boardroom battling.

In fact, by all accounts, significant progress is being made in terms of the relationship between the city and the Calgary Sports and Entertainment Corp. (CSEC), both of which are gaining a better understanding of the merits and the drawbacks of the two possible sites for a new building.

City officials are now simply buckling down, doing their due diligence for a report comparing the two possibilities.

As they should.

The report, which was originally slated to be unveiled by Halloween, is so extensive the city recently announced it has deferred its unveiling until the new year.

http://calgaryherald.com/business/co...ding-new-arena

[Ashasx]

can somebody tell me why there is still a god damn road between the building and the river

If you want to spend a billion dollars on a project like that, don't skimp on trash like this. It looks awful. It will be awful. You have to divert Bow Trail if you want it there.

[Ashasx]

Ken King is absolutely insulting

[activeStick]

"I probably shouldn't say this but you come from Calgary and you go from small to big in a hurry." - Stars coach Lindy Ruff on Rogers Place

[Jason14h]

Ken King being an idiot ! Colour me surprised !

[hockey.modern]

I was told by one the CalgaryNext promoters at the Dome last night, that Ken King and Co should be meeting with the city again in January. The city apparently "agreed" that the city needs a new arena/stadium and are looking at all options, whether it's this one or supposedly a new plan that involves East Village.

[nik-]

They understand if we're not sustainable we're not here

So we can stop pretending this isn't a checklist that the Flames are running now?

[Yoho]

"I think they now understand this is critical infrastructure for this city with or without us."
Hmmm...

[Kavvy]

Time is of the essence.

King is a jack@ss for saying this.

Time is of the essence to ensure a new rink is built for perspective Olympics or to keep the flames in town?

Remind me, wasn't it the Flames that took so long to submit a proposal for a new rink, and now are trying to add a deadline to this deal as part of a negotiating tactic?

What an @ss