Brad Treliving needs to go

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Itse

I'm not setting any parameters here. All I'm saying is, if you look at the bigger picture, 2019 clearly stands out as an anomaly, and the team isn't significantly better after "the rebuild" than it was before or during.

In 2010-15 the team collected an average of 87 points per season.

In 2016-21, assuming the team keeps this pace until the end, the Flames are collecting an average of 88 points per season.

Some rebuild.

My bad - it was another poster who said essentially there’d been no improvement of the team from that time.

But even to your point, you are not prorating last year I think, which equals about a 92.5 season. So not counting this wreck of a season, you have 94, 84, 107, 92, which is a 94 average. A PO team, but not a strong one. Which is more than what they were from 2010 to 2016.

This team, IMO, is more like the team right after Sutter went GM only. Just not good enough, no matter who the coach was, or what tinkering was done.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

So every year was an improvement over 2013. The real aberration was 2015.

This team isn’t as good as its 2019 record. But it’s better than it was in 2013. The question is - why isn’t it good enough, what could have been done differently to change that, and when? And it’s, IMO, a combination of bad luck, two bad trades, and simply not enough out of the starting material.

Any team that trades two first round picks and 5 second round picks in a 24 month period for assets that are currently playing in the NHL will be better in the short term. So it is not really surprising that the team got better in the 2-4 years after those trades. If you managed to trade that quality of picks and got worse, well then that would be something. When you can expect a team that made those trades without ever recouping the picks would be worse is 5-7 years out, which is roughly the timeline we are in now.

[taxbuster]

Fire him just to send a message. And I wouldn't be overly surprised to see some of the coaches changed either (not Darryl). Clearly there is rot in the system and it ain't just the players.

"Rotten to the core". Oh, and that includes some of the core.

Enough talk Tre, we need action and decisive action at that. No more "in on (whomever)...but...". If he can't pull the pin on decent trades, get someone who can.

[Vinny01]

Will Nault is calling a Treliving firing this offseason (opinion no insider info)

[Itse]

Originally Posted by taxbuster

Fire him just to send a message. And I wouldn't be overly surprised to see some of the coaches changed either (not Darryl). Clearly there is rot in the system and it ain't just the players.

"Rotten to the core". Oh, and that includes some of the core.

Enough talk Tre, we need action and decisive action at that. No more "in on (whomever)...but...". If he can't pull the pin on decent trades, get someone who can.

The more I look at the bigger picture, the less I think this team is in any way particularly "rotten".

It's just not good enough that's all. If the players are demoralized, it's probably because they know it. When they bring their best and the oppostion brings their best, they lose, at least in a seven game series against most other playoff teams.

Treliving abandoned the rebuild with the first sign of minor success, and the end result is a team that's no better than the one he inherited. That's not on the players, not as a whole at least. We can argue about individuals, but it doesn't change the overall situation, which is that we just don't have the players to compete.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

These were (obviously in hindsight) reasonable takes. But they still beg the question - what should Treliving have done about it? Trading them doesn’t make the team immediately better. Adding to them is difficult. So blow it up after the Avs series? Pretty ballsy.

As mentioned, there was another 50+ games of evidence following the Avs series. Yes, it was messed up with Peters-gate, but the losing/winning streaks kinda cancelled each other out.

At the All-star break the Flames were looking more likely than not to make the playoffs, but there were a lot of teams in a tight race (we also had the worst goal differential outside of California.

http://www.shrpsports.com/nhl/stand....th=Jan&date=22

Intellectual honesty: the team has a puncher's chance, but last season is looking more and more like a mirage.

Coming out of the All-star break we lost 4 of 5, including the 8-3 drubbing by Loserville.

Intellectual honesty: something ain't right.

Then: W W L W L W L W until the trade deadline.

Originally Posted by GioforPM

The 2020 TDL? I can’t see any possible move at that time that moves the needle, based on the team needs. Goalie and coach carousel? Sure. But I think the players have proven that coaching wasn’t really the underlying issue. Sutter will, in time, coax a few more points out. He’ll make the POs. But the exits will continue with this core.

Poor use of picks - that’s a complaint but it doesn’t change the present fortunes of the Flames. No pick that was traded except around the Hamilton acquisition (which was good) has had time to make any impact on an NHL team. You can, I guess, second guess that one into a Barzal draft. But now you don’t have Hanifin or Lindholm. You may wish to have the 2018 pick back, but that player is not impacting the Flames yet.

Neal was a mistake that impacted the team. Another $6M player could help. Enough? I kinda doubt it.

Maybe we should forget about moving the needle immediately, when the team had so many needs? One step back to take two forward?

I still contend that we could have traded away Brodie, Hamonic, and Gaudreau (for a current/future mix) without significantly altering our odds of making the playoffs and winning a round or two.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

As mentioned, there was another 50+ games of evidence following the Avs series. Yes, it was messed up with Peters-gate, but the losing/winning streaks kinda cancelled each other out.

At the All-star break the Flames were looking more likely than not to make the playoffs, but there were a lot of teams in a tight race (we also had the worst goal differential outside of California.

http://www.shrpsports.com/nhl/stand....th=Jan&date=22

Intellectual honesty: the team has a puncher's chance, but last season is looking more and more like a mirage.

Coming out of the All-star break we lost 4 of 5, including the 8-3 drubbing by Loserville.

Intellectual honesty: something ain't right.

Then: W W L W L W L W until the trade deadline.



Maybe we should forget about moving the needle immediately, when the team had so many needs? One step back to take two forward?

I still contend that we could have traded away Brodie, Hamonic, and Gaudreau (for a current/future mix) without significantly altering our odds of making the playoffs and winning a round or two.

In hindsight they should have taken more than two steps back. That is the point I’m trying to make. But it would have been extremely unpopular. And it would have been a TDL deal last year, when the Flames were in a PO spot. Tough to do, from a fan perspective, a value perspective and a team makeup perspective. Plus the deals have to be there.

I’m not saying it shouldn’t have happened. But maybe it couldn’t, and maybe it was just too hard to pull off, or even to think about seriously. It would have required a complete about face.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

The 2020 TDL? I can’t see any possible move at that time that moves the needle, based on the team needs. Goalie and coach carousel? Sure. But I think the players have proven that coaching wasn’t really the underlying issue. Sutter will, in time, coax a few more points out. He’ll make the POs. But the exits will continue with this core.

Poor use of picks - that’s a complaint but it doesn’t change the present fortunes of the Flames. No pick that was traded except around the Hamilton acquisition (which was good) has had time to make any impact on an NHL team. You can, I guess, second guess that one into a Barzal draft. But now you don’t have Hanifin or Lindholm. You may wish to have the 2018 pick back, but that player is not impacting the Flames yet.

Neal was a mistake that impacted the team. Another $6M player could help. Enough? I kinda doubt it.

Don't know how you dismiss the poor use of picks as having no impact on the "present fortunes" of the team. That is flat wrong. Whether it is through receiving better value in trades, better young players on the big league team or better prospects it is a huge factor. We struck out on all of these things.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Don't know how you dismiss the poor use of picks as having no impact on the "present fortunes" of the team. That is flat wrong. Whether it is through receiving better value in trades, better young players on the big league team or better prospects it is a huge factor. We struck out on all of these things.

Then you didn’t read what I wrote in context. I’m saying a mid to late first round 2018 pick likely doesn’t mean any extra points in 2021. I’m not saying it wouldn’t help the team long term.

[Strange Brew]

I will also push back on the deals have to be there argument.

Yeah Flames had a deal with Toronto for Kadri, which he nixed. He also nixed that deal for the Leafs.

While they go ahead and find a new trade the next day, Flames go into the next season unchanged with no improved forward scoring and Brodie leaves for nothing.

I don't buy the argument that there hasn't been a healthy market for Flames assets.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Then you didn’t read what I wrote in context. I’m saying a mid to late first round 2018 pick likely doesn’t mean any extra points in 2021. I’m not saying it wouldn’t help the team long term.

I read it all. You tried to provide a counter to each criticism of the GM.

At no point was I suggesting that 2021 performance is the crux of the argument. "Poor use of picks" goes well beyond the team's performance in the current year.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

This is a bit disingenuous for sure. I don't think the team is in a worse position than when he took over, the problem is the team is not in much better of a position and it feels like the 7 years were wasted

Looking at key pieces from the 14-15 team to now on the roster from when Brad took over.

Key Forwards: Glencross (31), Hudler (30), Backlund (25) Ferland (22), Baertschi (21), Gaudreau (21), Monahan (19),

Key Defense: Wideman (31), Giordano (30), Brodie (24)

Goalies: Hiller (32), Ramo (28)

1st Round Prospects: Bennett, Poirier, Klimchuk, Jankowski

And compare that to now:

Key Forwards: Lucic (32), Backlund (32), Gaudreau (27), Lindholm (26), Monahan (26), Mangiapane (25), Tkachuk (23), Dube (22),

Key Defense: Giordano (36), Tanev (31), Hanifin (24), Andersson (24), Valimaki (22)

Goalies: Markstrom (31)

1st Round Prospects: Zary, Pelletier,

Overall it's actually pretty close. Issue is we all hoped we'd be further along at this point.

Real problem this year has been a couple of players taking huge steps back (Tkachuk, Monahan, Gaudreau, Gio, specifically), and some players not taking the next step we hoped they would (Valimaki, Dube, Andersson). Really the team needs to be making tough decisions on Monahan, Gaudreau, Gio, and Backlund this offseason. Need to move them for younger pieces / pieces that are longer term. Then retool around Tkachuk, Lindholm, Mangiapane, Hanifin, Andersson, Valimaki, Markstrom.

On the 2014-15 team Kris Russell was a better D-man than anyone that the Flames currently have

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

You talk like the team has missed the playoffs every year and this year is typical under Treliving. The team did have a 107pt season which was their best in 30 years.

This team is far more asset rich and in better position than when Treliving took over. The post claiming he started with the “next Toews and Kane” well they are both still here and neither is close to what the Hawks players were then or even where Kane still is today.

If you give a GM what Treliving started with or what he has today and tell that GM they have to win right away or they can build it up from scratch any GM takes the current Flames team.

After seven years of very limited on ice success, it's way closer than it should be. That's the whole problem IMO, the team he took over didn't need to win right away.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

That was as good at that team was going to get. The Flames went on to make the playoffs (as expected) for the next 4 seasons

Yes after a great season is the time to sell high and solidify the team

Hard to think how much better the Flames would be today had they moved 3 or 4 of Gaudreau, Monahan, Hamonic, Backlund Brodie Jankowski Ryan when they were coming off career years in 2018-19

Gio had just won the Norris .

There was a good sign that this team was not solid going forward as shown in the playoffs... where Bennett was the best player.

I bet CP would have erupted if it Johnny, Monny and Gio were traded at that time.


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[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I thought Guadreau and Monahan should have been traded last offseason. It was not a popular opinion around here at the time.

But people need to recognized it was the worst offseason in NHL history for making a trade. Almost every potential deal would have to be dollar in for dollar out. The number of teams interested in those two guys would have been small. And the return would have been nothing close to what fans expected - opposing scouts and GMs are well aware of the deficiencies of Gaudreau and Monahan.

.

I was of the view they should be moved at that time as well.

They were certainly available but the market was generally weak, plus I think no one was loading up the truck for Johnny or Monny.

I believe that Treliving hoped they would recoup some value this year. Unfortunately, the opposite has occurred.


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[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

I was of the view they should be moved at that time as well.

They were certainly available but the market was generally weak, plus I think no one was loading up the truck for Johnny or Monny.

I believe that Treliving hoped they would recoup some value this year. Unfortunately, the opposite has occurred.


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I really liked the Konecny proposals. They made sense, given Gaudreau’s contract. I didn’t hear one for Monahan that was attractive but I would have been happy to see one.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

On the 2014-15 team Kris Russell was a better D-man than anyone that the Flames currently have

Usually your hot takes don't get me but that one is too far hahaha

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Will Nault is calling a Treliving firing this offseason (opinion no insider info)

Surely Nault.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I really liked the Konecny proposals. They made sense, given Gaudreau’s contract. I didn’t hear one for Monahan that was attractive but I would have been happy to see one.

I think if Konecny had been available for Johnny last offseason that deal would have been done.

Would have given the Flames a decent player with much more term.

I believe the Buffalo deal was Monny for Risto, with the Flames getting a decent prospect as well. I’m guessing the Flames wanted Cozens. I think that’s likely where that trade went off the rails.


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[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

I think if Konecny had been available for Johnny last offseason that deal would have been done.

Would have given the Flames a decent player with much more term.

I believe the Buffalo deal was Monny for Risto, with the Flames getting a decent prospect as well. I’m guessing the Flames wanted Cozens. I think that’s likely where that trade went off the rails.


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I bet if that’s true the Sabres wanted to send Mittlestadt instead