Unethical? Yes, married rock star in his 30s chasing tail from late teen / early 20 something fans and using his celebrity as an advantage in said pursuit. Illegal / assault? No.
That's not even bad to me. Like, don't we all use the things that separate us from the competition to our advantage when in pursuit of the opposite sex (or same sex as the case may be)? What's next, we get mad if girls are attracted to rich guys? I've also noticed really attractive guys pulling really attractive girls - I'm outraged.
The only problem here is cheating on his wife. Makes him slimy, but, like, I can't help but think that happens everyday everywhere regardless of whether or not you're a celebrity.
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That's not even bad to me. Like, don't we all use the things that separate us from the competition to our advantage when in pursuit of the opposite sex (or same sex as the case may be)? What's next, we get mad if girls are attracted to rich guys? I've also noticed really attractive guys pulling really attractive girls - I'm outraged.
The only problem here is cheating on his wife. Makes him slimy, but, like, I can't help but think that happens everyday everywhere regardless of whether or not you're a celebrity.
It gets a little blurrier when your fans are in their teens. If he's repeatedly sending them sexual messages and dick pics after they've said no, that's a problem.
We haven't seen all the communications between the two, so we don't really know how the whole extent of the relationships. There's pretty different stories. The girls are saying they repeatedly said no. Butler is saying everything was consensual.
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the problem for Butler and the rest of the band is their image music and fanbase are late twenties urban leftish college kids/grads, it this was Lars Ulrich or Pusha T no one would bat an eye
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the problem for Butler and the rest of the band is their image music and fanbase are late twenties urban leftish college kids/grads, it this was Lars Ulrich or Pusha T no one would bat an eye
Don't drag Pusha T into this.
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That's not even bad to me. Like, don't we all use the things that separate us from the competition to our advantage when in pursuit of the opposite sex (or same sex as the case may be)? What's next, we get mad if girls are attracted to rich guys? I've also noticed really attractive guys pulling really attractive girls - I'm outraged.
The only problem here is cheating on his wife. Makes him slimy, but, like, I can't help but think that happens everyday everywhere regardless of whether or not you're a celebrity.
I guess it depends on whether you believe what these people are saying about what happened. If the accounts are true, then you have some pretty troubling behavior:
-one person claims they became friends with Butler after he expressed interest in their art career. After a dinner, Butler grabbed their crotch aggressively while in a car and then kissed them without permission. Then a few days later showed up at their house after being told not to come, entered the house and forced himself on this person, and the berating them after his advances were rejected.
-another was 18 years old when 36 year old Butler contacted her through Instagram and eventually started sending her explicit texts/messages and eventually dick pics without her permission.
-he interacted with two other young women on Instagram, eventually asking them to send him explicit photos/videos of themselves which they both said they weren't comfortable with, but eventually did.
That last is the least problematic (even if a bit creepy), but at the same time (as afc wimbledon mentions above) celebrities are going to be judged by their public persona and their fans. So when it's revealed that an artist who has unabashedly promoted progressive causes and women's rights is scouring Instagram to get barely legal fans to send him explicit videos, it's going to generate more of a reaction than in other cases.
And then there's there's the weird response from Butler, including blaming his behavior on his wife having a miscarriage years ago, and offering to send the author of the article the contact info of other women he has had consensual sexual encounters with in the past (as if that makes a difference).
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It gets a little blurrier when your fans are in their teens. If he's repeatedly sending them sexual messages and dick pics after they've said no, that's a problem.
We haven't seen all the communications between the two, so we don't really know how the whole extent of the relationships. There's pretty different stories. The girls are saying they repeatedly said no. Butler is saying everything was consensual.
18 at the youngest. Isn't that fair game? Creepy, sure, to some. Maybe not to a guy that is emotionally immature, which is a lot of famous people - in Taylor Swift's documentary she said celebrities generally stay at the maturity level of the age they were when they became famous and I think that makes sense and you can kind of see it. But, like, 18 is literally the age of consent and you're 100% allowed to go for it.
The women are saying it was consensual, too. Where have you read that he raped them or forced them? Sounds like he was persistent, but isn't that just how some relationships start? My wife jokes that she was persistent with me until I finally gave in. Like, there has to be a good number of relationships that start with one party being more interested than the other party until a two-way connection eventually forms.
This is not an assault situation from what I've read so far. It's a guy "chasing tail" for lack of a classier term. Now maybe the chicks look back and regret it. Okay, that happens. Doesn't mean it was all his fault. Hopefully they learned and grew from it, but really, they have a lot of culpability here - especially if they were messing around with a guy that they knew was married. That's morally wrong of them - they're complicit in emotionally assaulting his wife...the innocent party.
18 at the youngest. Isn't that fair game? Creepy, sure, to some. Maybe not to a guy that is emotionally immature, which is a lot of famous people - in Taylor Swift's documentary she said celebrities generally stay at the maturity level of the age they were when they became famous and I think that makes sense and you can kind of see it. But, like, 18 is literally the age of consent and you're 100% allowed to go for it.
The women are saying it was consensual, too. Where have you read that he raped them or forced them? Sounds like he was persistent, but isn't that just how some relationships start? My wife jokes that she was persistent with me until I finally gave in. Like, there has to be a good number of relationships that start with one party being more interested than the other party until a two-way connection eventually forms.
This is not an assault situation from what I've read so far. It's a guy "chasing tail" for lack of a classier term. Now maybe the chicks look back and regret it. Okay, that happens. Doesn't mean it was all his fault. Hopefully they learned and grew from it, but really, they have a lot of culpability here - especially if they were messing around with a guy that they knew was married. That's morally wrong of them - they're complicit in emotionally assaulting his wife...the innocent party.
Careful, sjw's tend to not like context with things like this. Wouldn't want to see you get canceled
The women are saying it was consensual, too. Where have you read that he raped them or forced them? Sounds like he was persistent, but isn't that just how some relationships start? My wife jokes that she was persistent with me until I finally gave in. Like, there has to be a good number of relationships that start with one party being more interested than the other party until a two-way connection eventually forms.
Again, it depends on who you believe, but this doesn't sound particularly consensual if the person is telling the truth:
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According to Lily, the two met again for dinner on or around February 26. In an initial interview with Pitchfork, they claimed that Butler stuck his hands into their pants without consent while driving them home after the meal. When Lily expressed discomfort, they say, Butler eventually removed his hand and dropped them off at home.
Butler claims that he only put his hand on Lily’s inner thigh, and that Lily “looked me in the eyes and said ‘not in the car’ in a way that seemed flirtatious.” Responding to Butler’s account, Lily said it was possible that he touched them through their pants rather than putting his hand inside, but maintained that it was a “very aggressive” touching of their crotch, not their inner thigh, and that their response was not flirtatious. Their accounts of the meal itself also differ. Butler claims that they “flirted all meal” and again kissed consensually; Lily remembers the dinner as awkward and says that no such kiss took place.
According to Lily, Butler showed up at their apartment about two days later, on February 28, after he texted asking to come over and Lily repeatedly told him not to. Lily was busy preparing for an art event they had curated that night at a Montreal venue when Butler arrived at their door. Butler, in his statement, acknowledged the visit. “I happened to be by [their] apartment a few days later and asked if [Lily] was free,” his statement reads. “[Lily] said [they were] busy with schoolwork and I said I would just say hi since I happened to be right there.”
“I opened my door and he pinned me up against the wall and was aggressively grabbing my body and sticking his tongue down my throat,” Lily said. “It was an attempt to be sexy, and it was so not OK in the context.” However, Butler’s statement reads, “When [Lily] opened the door we started kissing immediately…I don’t remember who initiated it but it was definitely mutual.”
According to Lily, they asked Butler to leave and he refused. “Eventually he pulled me onto his lap on my couch. I don’t know if he was holding me by the waist or what, but I was physically constrained by him as he was putting his hand down my pants. At some point he tried to go down on me,” they said. They claim they told him again to leave. “The anger and the power in my voice surprised me,” they said. “I will never forget it.” Butler got up at that point, Lily claims, and began berating them for denying his advances.
Same here:
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Within days of the bar meeting, Stella alleges, Butler was repeatedly sending her explicit texts without her consent or reciprocation. “Sorry I really hate sexting,” she wrote in response to one of Butler’s apparent Instagram messages. In screenshotted messages provided to Pitchfork by Stella, Butler also appears to ask Stella if she had a roommate. Butler never asked her age, she says. In his statement, Butler responds: “I googled her and knew that she was 18.”
Stella also claims that Butler sent her photos of his genitals against her wishes, and a friend of hers recalled seeing the photos in an interview with Pitchfork. “She was devastated,” the friend says. Stella told another friend about the sexting in a Facebook chat on October 23, 2016. “Win butler asked me for nudes and tried to sext me. And I told him I was really uncomfortable with that,” Stella wrote. “I don’t really know what to do now. He keeps texting me. Over and over.” Pitchfork viewed the Facebook messages between Stella and her friend and spoke with the friend Stella was messaging, who confirmed the veracity of the exchange.
Again, it depends on who you believe, but this doesn't sound particularly consensual if the person is telling the truth:
Same here:
It doesn't sound particularly consensual, but it may not also be explicitly shut down.
Let's say everything she said is true - okay, block his number. You're under no obligation to open dick pics or text with a guy. Ignore him. If he shows up at your door and you don't want him there, don't open it. Like, there are ways to shut down a creep. Is it uncomfortable? Sure. But you can still do it.
He shows up starts kissing her? I mean, maybe that's his go-to move. I'm sure it works awesome for a rock star a lot of the time. I'm sure some chicks find it hot and exciting. It's not necessarily a terrible move in the right context. That's never happened to you? Like, I honestly don't recall "asking" for permission in my younger years...#### can just sometimes start up and it works for both parties. She didn't like it so she should shut it down. I know that's hard to do, but if you continue texting with a guy you don't like, open your door when he calls on you, allow him into your home after he forcefully kissed you...like...yeah, you're kind of inviting more trouble.
But really, you have him sending you multiple unwanted texts? Why the fata aren't you blocking him? I honestly don't get it.
I do get and acknowledge that he was persistent to a fault, but again, you have a persistent guy (and come on, you know that works for a lot of people interested in notches on the bedpost) and women giving him too soft of a "not interested" when they had way more tools at their disposal to keep him away.
I think this leads to a greater conversation we need to be having with our daughters (and I do have this conversation with my daughter). You owe a man nothing you don't want to give. You don't owe a hug or kiss on the cheek at the end of the date. Literally nothing is stopping you from blocking people on social media, hanging up the phone, not opening a door and not leaving an uncomfortable situation. If you're objections are ignored, call 911 (or me or both).
18 at the youngest. Isn't that fair game? Creepy, sure, to some. Maybe not to a guy that is emotionally immature, which is a lot of famous people - in Taylor Swift's documentary she said celebrities generally stay at the maturity level of the age they were when they became famous and I think that makes sense and you can kind of see it. But, like, 18 is literally the age of consent and you're 100% allowed to go for it.
The women are saying it was consensual, too. Where have you read that he raped them or forced them? Sounds like he was persistent, but isn't that just how some relationships start? My wife jokes that she was persistent with me until I finally gave in. Like, there has to be a good number of relationships that start with one party being more interested than the other party until a two-way connection eventually forms.
This is not an assault situation from what I've read so far. It's a guy "chasing tail" for lack of a classier term. Now maybe the chicks look back and regret it. Okay, that happens. Doesn't mean it was all his fault. Hopefully they learned and grew from it, but really, they have a lot of culpability here - especially if they were messing around with a guy that they knew was married. That's morally wrong of them - they're complicit in emotionally assaulting his wife...the innocent party.
All depends on what actually happened here. Opendoor did a good job of summarizing the disputed facts.
As far as I know there's no actual criminal charges being laid. So, thus far anyways, it's a matter of his reputation, and, as AFC Wimbledon stated, his audience is (was) pretty pro-feminism and anti-creep. Regardless of who's story is correct, he's lost a significant part of his audience.
That being said, if he's sending pictures of his genitals, after being told no, or grabbing women by the crotch that's definitely criminal activity. I do get your point about persistence prior to a relationship, but there's a difference between that and showing up at a person's home of residence, after being told not to come, and physically pushing yourself onto them.
@ Sliver But there was a “power imbalance”. He’s a famous rock star. Saying no to him is different than some rando chump from down the block who makes $40k per year and has no groupies, no power and can’t ruin your career if you piss him off.
It doesn't sound particularly consensual, but it may not also be explicitly shut down.
Let's say everything she said is true - okay, block his number. You're under no obligation to open dick pics or text with a guy. Ignore him.
They did, eventually. But that doesn't excuse the behavior prior to that.
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If he shows up at your door and you don't want him there, don't open it. Like, there are ways to shut down a creep. Is it uncomfortable? Sure. But you can still do it.
I don't know, if someone I'm acquainted with asks to stop by, and I say "no, I"m busy today", and then they say "I'll just stop by to quickly say hi", my first inclination isn't to lock the door if they show up. If that person's account is true, they probably thought he'd say hi and then be on his way, but instead he forced himself on them. I don't think you can blame the victim in that scenario.
Again, it totally depends on who's telling the truth; maybe his account is totally correct and this person is lying. But when you have several people come out at once, it's a bit more problematic. And you don't have to search too far online to find references to Butler's reputation in both Montreal and New Orleans.
Yeah, he sounds like a prick. A persistent prick. A persistent prick who is too aggressive in the way he macks on chicks. Doesn't sound like he's doing anything illegal or rapey to me, though. Even "grabbing crotches". Like, yeah, that's bad. Don't go around grabbing crotches. On the other hand, when did chicks ask to "grab" your crotch and did you always ask before "grabbing crotches" of girls you dated, or did sometimes your hand start moving around and you went for it or their hand just went for you and you let it happen?
I probably sound super creepy here and this is not a guy I'd want anywhere near my daughter, but what he's doing is not super far off what people often do in their courting years.
I'm just not seeing anything illegal and I'm not a fan of their music so I didn't know his reputation was one of being a woke feminist or whatever. All of this gets a big 'meh' from me. Honestly, just kind of how I picture many rock stars behaving.
I'm not ready to call these ladies victims yet. I think his wife is a victim, though, and hearing these women talk about their sexcipades with him probably re-victimizes her, too.
But hey, if he got into any territory that is illegal (underage girls) or sexual assaults I hope they throw the book at him like I'd hope they'd throw the book at any sexual predator. I honestly don't know this guy or this band from a hole in the wall and have no skin in the game. Like everyone else, I'm just trying to find the right spot for my disdain/outrage/whatever in the Me Too climate by differentiating and establishing a scale of consequences based on the actions of the men and women in these situations.
Like with Louis CK. He jerked off with women on the phone? Boohoo...hang up. That's low on the scale to me. That Lost Prophets guy raping babies? Top of the scale. Arcade Fire guy? Seems closer to Louis CK with an extra dab of #######ry.
Just to be clear Sliver you are saying that if you are on a date driving home it’s acceptable and not assault to reach across the seat and grab a womens crotch?
And it’s okay when a door opens of a person you have been on one date with to pin them against wall kissing them?
Just to be clear Sliver you are saying that if you are on a date driving home it’s acceptable and not assault to reach across the seat and grab a womens crotch?
And it’s okay when a door opens of a person you have been on one date with to pin them against wall kissing them?
And it’s okay to send unsolicited duck picks?
Those three things seem to me to be illegal.
Why not? When did unsolicited Duck pics become a crime? Now cancel culture has just gone TOO FAR!!!
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I think focusing on whether what he did was illegal or not is dumb and irrelevant, honesty. He’s not under investigation. He’s not being sued. It doesn’t matter.
End of the day it sounds like he took advantage of young women while cheating on his wife. It’s a ####ty thing to do. His wife forgave him, which is entirely her prerogative, and the young women he was with or pursuing seem to reflect negatively on their experience with him. His behaviour doesn’t need to be illegal for them to talk about it. It doesn’t need to be illegal to affect his reputation.
I think the women were telling the truth, and I think the Butler probably believes his version to some degree. That doesn’t absolve him completely.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sliver
Like everyone else, I'm just trying to find the right spot for my disdain/outrage/whatever in the Me Too climate by differentiating and establishing a scale of consequences based on the actions of the men and women in these situations.
I think this is kind of a lazy cop out for being ignorant and saying whatever you want to say. You didn’t have to blame the women, or state your refusal to call them victims, or pick the wife as the one “victim” whether or not she sees herself as one. You can just listen and think about it and, if you need to, quietly make your own judgement or, if what you say is true and you haven’t even heard of the band, make no judgement at all, because it’s going to have zero impact.
You don’t need to establish a scale of consequences. Be a normal human being and just treat each situation individually, not like some peg in the overall Me Too machine that needs to be measured and carefully placed. That’s such a sad, awkward way to operate. Be a person.
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Just to be clear Sliver you are saying that if you are on a date driving home it’s acceptable and not assault to reach across the seat and grab a womens crotch?
And it’s okay when a door opens of a person you have been on one date with to pin them against wall kissing them?
And it’s okay to send unsolicited duck picks?
Those three things seem to me to be illegal.
There's a lot of behavior that's considered perfectly acceptable, heck even desired from a woman's perspective when she's into a guy and unacceptable and 'creepy' when she's not. Something that a guy may or may not know immediately prior to said advances being made. That's not to say that everything's all well and good here, but rather this isn't cut and dry.
Also let's stop infantilizing young adults here, the whole 'power imbalance', ' she was only 18,21,25 . . .' talk is pure garbage. If that's too young an age to let people navigate sexual relationships, rockstar involvement or not, then lets start taking away that demographic's right to vote.
Last edited by Cowboy89; 09-01-2022 at 05:55 PM.
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What's to say I haven't thought about it before forming my opinion? I have. Who hasn't thought about Me Too in the past few years?
I have a few takeaways to improve things and I'd like to hear your guys' as well. My biggest one is education for boys and girls in school so we can lower instances of sexual aggression. I'm trying to give my daughter strategies, tools and perspectives brought about from listening to Me Too victims to help her protect herself from becoming a victim. I don't think when I was growing up many girls had a conversation with their dad about how they didn't owe boys anything, how it is okay to physically block somebody and how it is okay to immediately remove yourself from an uncomfortable situation. Me Too has spurred those conversations in our house. I also think blocking persistent and creepy guys versus engaging with them on social media is the best strategy and we've talked about that, too.
I know my wife's dad didn't have these conversations with her when she was an adolescent. I don't know if other dads out there did, but I hope they are now because it is important for girls and women to exercise the control they have over situations.
My son is being taught about boundaries, no means no and anything other than yes means no. This, too, is new based on Me Too. In my day, you would 'make a move.' I haven't dated in over 20 years, but I sure as #### would ask before making a move now...again, lessons learned from Me Too.
I also think it's troublesome to characterize every sexual infraction as a maximum transgression. There is a scale and it matters. It's not lazy to acknowledge that; it's lazy not to. Let's start with two basic categories at the very least: illegal and legal. I mean, that has to be reasonable, no? Like, the law seems to think there is a distinction and so do I. Do more behaviours need to be illegal? Sure, I'm open to that.
Like, how is there no room for nuance, context, and genuine misunderstanding in this conversation?
PepsiFree - you say to treat each situation individually. We agree. That's what I'm trying to do. If we're going to do that, though, how can there not be a scale? How can some behaviours not be worse than others and how can that not lead to different consequences being appropriate based on the behaviours?
Remember the Aziz Ansari situation? Did you watch this? Yes there's a fataing scale that goes from normal sexual interaction all the way up to pedophilic rape and we should be able to talk about that scale without getting accused of having a 'shtick'.
