Flames to announce plans to announce arena plans in the... future...

[BigFlameDog]

This is funny...there will be a new arena/complex built....there will be some combination of funding/tax relief/land donation/infrastructure from at least 2 of 3 levels of government (municipal and provincial) and in the end it will be awesome.

All the crap in between is posturing and public negotiating by both sides....hopefully KK doesn't pull a Katz and have himself seen in the new Quebec arena and hopefully Nenshi can scratch more out of ownership than Edmonton did.

The only real question is will it be 3,4 or 5 years until I am picking seats.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by nik-

That article doesn't sound good.

If they even start hinting at the relocation threat, they're going to make my fan status waiver. Just don't do it Flames ... do not play that bull#### card.

I love hockey and I love the Flames but if they started down that path I would be in favour of letting them walk.

[Senator Clay Davis]

The Flames, at least with this ownership group, will absolutely not relocate the team, and surely know the threat of doing so is very empty. Leave a top 7 NHL market for KC or Seattle, to maybe be the 4th sports option there? Highly doubtful

Now selling the team to someone who would relocate them? Entirely different situation and that could happen, though I still doubt it.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Stang

About the contamination, who normally pays (or is responsible) for remediation? The city, province, the former company that used the land, etc.? Or is it more complicated than that?

Also, what exactly was there before and when was it in operation? I can only ever remember the car dealerships, so it must have been quite some time ago.

It was a creosote wood treatment plant from 1924 to 1964. There's a lot of information about it online if you search for "Canada Creosote Calgary". There used to be a really good and detailed document about the plant and the contamination issues, but it appears to be gone now.

My understanding is that when the plant closed, cleanup of the site was minimal. In the late-80s, a study was conducted that determined the contamination had spread across the river into West Hillhurst. Containment measures were implemented in the mid-90s and it is continually monitored.

The car dealerships and Greyhound depot have likely contributed their own contamination in the decades since the Creosote plant closed.

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by BigFlameDog

This is funny...there will be a new arena/complex built....there will be some combination of funding/tax relief/land donation/infrastructure from at least 2 of 3 levels of government (municipal and provincial) and in the end it will be awesome.

All the crap in between is posturing and public negotiating by both sides....hopefully KK doesn't pull a Katz and have himself seen in the new Quebec arena and hopefully Nenshi can scratch more out of ownership than Edmonton did.

The only real question is will it be 3,4 or 5 years until I am picking seats.

Really? Because 2 of the 3 levels of government have already said no funding to this types of projects. Any provincial funding would raise major criticism from Edmonton as they didn't get any.

The city used funds given to it by the province but no direct money came from the province. This money that Calgary also received but used to fund other things.

[ExiledFlamesFan]

If the CH article is true and the owners will be looking for taxpayer funding, they've picked the absolute worst time ( in a few weeks) to look for handouts. The 2010-2014 boom is now over and the layoffs have begun. Taxpayers in Calgary are not interested in subsidizing private enterprises, especially when there are mass layoffs and people's homes are losing value.

When oil is at $60-70/barrel it is not the time to look for taxpayer handouts.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by ExiledFlamesFan

If the CH article is true and the owners will be looking for taxpayer funding, they've picked the absolute worst time ( in a few weeks) to look for handouts. The 2010-2014 boom is now over and the layoffs have begun. Taxpayers in Calgary are not interested in subsidizing private enterprises, especially when there are mass layoffs and people's homes are losing value.

When oil is at $60-70/barrel it is not the time to look for taxpayer handouts.

Actually, when the economy cools is exactly when you should look at large infrastructure buildouts.

!) the cost of labour and resources is lower, and

2) the job boost is valuable to the economy (as opposed to doing it during a boom when it is inflationary)

[ExiledFlamesFan]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Actually, when the economy cools is exactly when you should look at large infrastructure buildouts.

!) the cost of labour and resources is lower, and

2) the job boost is valuable to the economy (as opposed to doing it during a boom when it is inflationary)

Surely you understand the difference between building infrastructure and getting handouts from taxpayers.

I agree that the owners building the arena with their own money is more economic when labour is cheap. But asking for taxpayer money will be even more unpopular with mass layoffs and a huge hit in real estate prices.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by nik-

That article doesn't sound good.

If they even start hinting at the relocation threat, they're going to make my fan status waiver. Just don't do it Flames ... do not play that bull#### card.

I agree with you. But if people don't want the Flames to play hardball, they should motivate their city counsel to also be more co-operative.

A project of this size and scope does not happen without the support of government. The Bow/Crowchild situation needs to be dealt with - no better time for the city than as part of a project like this. Rail and bus line needs to be incorporated, etc.

These things are not the responsibility of the arena, they are city planning issues. Lumping it all under the guise of 'handouts to the rich' is mind-numbingly obtuse.

[Jimmy Stang]

Originally Posted by getbak

It was a creosote wood treatment plant from 1924 to 1964. There's a lot of information about it online if you search for "Canada Creosote Calgary". There used to be a really good and detailed document about the plant and the contamination issues, but it appears to be gone now.

My understanding is that when the plant closed, cleanup of the site was minimal. In the late-80s, a study was conducted that determined the contamination had spread across the river into West Hillhurst. Containment measures were implemented in the mid-90s and it is continually monitored.

The car dealerships and Greyhound depot have likely contributed their own contamination in the decades since the Creosote plant closed.

Thank you! I love finding out about local history, even the dirty, not-so-exciting stuff. And it is made more interesting by the potential link to future redevelopment, arena or otherwise.

[JBR]

The Flames owners have never asked for public money, regardless of media and public conjecture.

It's probably best not to point fingers at the Flames until an announcement is made that includes financial details.

Why waste time trying to diffuse a bomb before you even know that it's a bomb?

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by ExiledFlamesFan

Surely you understand the difference between building infrastructure and getting handouts from taxpayers.

I agree that the owners building the arena with their own money is more economic when labour is cheap. But asking for taxpayer money will be even more unpopular with mass layoffs and a huge hit in real estate prices.

I agree that it will be unpopular. That doesn't make it wrong. Creating jobs is a good thing. And yes, this is infrastructure.

[albertGQ]

Originally Posted by 1stLand

Design the new arena complex with Bike Lanes and the city will definitely give up the west village lands for free.

Eventually, I would like to see the Flames Management and Players ride their bikes to the Arena. This is more sustainable then them driving their big fancy SUV's to the game.

Your color font sucks and is annoying

[cam_wmh]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

I love hockey and I love the Flames but if they started down that path I would be in favour of letting them walk.

Of course.

If they Flames ownership and leadership, were so asinine to go down that path, and re-located -- well, the void of a pro hockey team in this city would be replaced so fast, it'd blow their collective socks off.

It would be a P.R nightmare. Flames owners, should and hopefully will, take the land concession that city council is offering, work it as a partnership and work with them to rebuild the infrastructure that is bow trail/14th street etc;

This city will not be absent of pro hockey.

[Beatle17]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Major difference being none of the infrastructure thing are for profit businesses, which of course the Flames clearly are. This is subsidizing an already profitable company in an effort for them to make even more money. Forgive me but that's ridiculous and not something taxpayers should be doing. It's essentially corporate welfare, of course I don't blame them for wanting the money, I just hope they realize it's a massive uphill climb for them to convince people they should get it.

If the Flames were shedding money and needed a new arena to survive, so be it. But this is about, and Burke says it, "NHL economics" which is about more luxury suites and more lower bowl seats (which they can charge more for). Support infrastructure is fine (and if the West Village location is the choice, it's essential), but paying for the arena will never fly.

Sorry but this part kills me in every argument. The City spends money on infrastructure for every business in Calgary via road improvements, sewer and electrical. This is the infrastructure everyone means, so even if they want to develop the area for housing and business they need to spend this money, nobody should be making this out to be that the City is spending money for the Flames owners. They will be spending money to get a business to invest in the city and pay taxes. Everyone should remember also that the City gave the land away to the developers for the East Village to get something started in the area, which will take another 10 years before we see any tax money recouped in the area.

[Bunk]

Originally Posted by Ryan Coke

Seems like a number of leaks from the mayors office went into that article.

Markusoff FOIPed the office's communications on the issue.

[Bunk]

Originally Posted by Beatle17

Sorry but this part kills me in every argument. The City spends money on infrastructure for every business in Calgary via road improvements, sewer and electrical. This is the infrastructure everyone means, so even if they want to develop the area for housing and business they need to spend this money, nobody should be making this out to be that the City is spending money for the Flames owners. They will be spending money to get a business to invest in the city and pay taxes. Everyone should remember also that the City gave the land away to the developers for the East Village to get something started in the area, which will take another 10 years before we see any tax money recouped in the area.

The land was/is sold at market value to developers. The only land that was really gifted was for the Library and National Music Centre). Also, tax dollars are already being collected as the CRL area is larger than East Village Proper (Rivers District CRL) and includes buildings like the Bow and also south of the tracks and captures projects like Guardian, Nuera, etc). New condo projects and hotel in East Village are starting occupation next year, so those will start paying back the CRL loan as well. Development is happening at a pretty rapid pace, so will likely pay back quicker than anticipated.

[Jimmy Stang]

Oh hey Bunk. Any discussion at the office regarding the article? There's not really anything that we didn't already know/assume on the part of the city - there's obviously not much of an appetite for public funds from city council or the citizens. Just curious if there's any reaction to it.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by Beatle17

Sorry but this part kills me in every argument. The City spends money on infrastructure for every business in Calgary via road improvements, sewer and electrical. This is the infrastructure everyone means, so even if they want to develop the area for housing and business they need to spend this money, nobody should be making this out to be that the City is spending money for the Flames owners. They will be spending money to get a business to invest in the city and pay taxes. Everyone should remember also that the City gave the land away to the developers for the East Village to get something started in the area, which will take another 10 years before we see any tax money recouped in the area.

And I'm for infrastructure to support a new arena. Just don't pay for the arena. Did the city pay for the Bow? Of course not, and there would have been massive outrage had they done so. Add the +15s and all the other crap? By all means go for it. But tax dollars are finite, and giving an already profitable company a freebie is quite a waste. If this city had no other issues at all, maybe, maybe pay for the building. But we have a lot of issues that are only going to grow as the city does as well.

PSL's should be the play here. The season ticket holders will bitch and moan non-stop but so what?The season ticket holder is in the building 1 out of every 7 nights a year, everyone else is in there about 1 every 40 nights a year.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I agree with you. But if people don't want the Flames to play hardball, they should motivate their city counsel to also be more co-operative.

A project of this size and scope does not happen without the support of government. The Bow/Crowchild situation needs to be dealt with - no better time for the city than as part of a project like this. Rail and bus line needs to be incorporated, etc.

These things are not the responsibility of the arena, they are city planning issues. Lumping it all under the guise of 'handouts to the rich' is mind-numbingly obtuse.

lol no. Why should we motivate city council to give them money or free land for the privilege of the Flames maximizing their revenue while offering less general attendance seating, more suites and likely a higher ticket prices?

That would make us morons. We'd be begging to pay to end up with a more expensive, more exclusive experience.