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Old 11-14-2010, 08:18 PM   #241
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where does God come in?
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Old 11-14-2010, 08:19 PM   #242
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hmmm...what if youve chosen the wrong God? There are over 300 of them on this planet right now you know?
Than that's the wrong choice I've made and I will live with it. I would rather choose the God I have than choose no god.
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Old 11-14-2010, 08:25 PM   #243
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Athiests are so much more passionate about their beliefs than religious folk. That's why they fly planes into buildings, kill abortion doctors,start Crusades, limit other people's freedoms, etc... Oh wait nevermind.
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Old 11-14-2010, 08:26 PM   #244
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Didn't say it was a requirement, but in perspective I prefer the idea of a God in that it provides extra meaning, it's not whether it has to or not. Is it what I want? Certainly it is, because it is a desire it doesn't make it right for everyone but it makes it right for me and I don't like the alternatives presented.
Believing in belief is what Dennett called that. And that's fine, I don't have a problem with believing something because they want to, but I think it's important to understand that as well that it's not actually valid from a reasoning point of view.

I was at a point where I wanted to understand why I believed what I did, and
for me, believing in belief, believing something just because I wanted to believe it, because it felt right, wasn't sufficient, I had to go further. If god gave us rational brains and created a universe of laws, then meaning and belief should be accessible through those pathways too.

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It's spirituality, it is what it is.
Not sure I agree with that, or not exclusively anyway. Looking at the stars, understanding something profound about our universe, is something very "spiritual" to me. Introspection and contemplation don't require an external agent IMO.
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Old 11-14-2010, 08:31 PM   #245
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Pascal called, he'd like his wager back

If this argument actually had merit, why aren't you worshiping Allah, Zeus, Odin, and Wotan too? Or one of the other of the thousands of gods? By not doing what they say is required, you are risking your eternal life.
Because based upon what I've read in the bible and have heard from others I believe that the God I worship is the only god. Again it's a choice I've made but it certainly seems to bother others that I've made that choice what I really don't understand since it does not impact you. Just like what ever choice you made on who to worship or not worship doesn't impact my life.
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Old 11-14-2010, 08:37 PM   #246
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Because based upon what I've read in the bible and have heard from others I believe that the God I worship is the only god.
If you were born in another country, India or Indonesia do you think you'd still have come up with the same conclusion?

EDIT: I came to the opposite conclusion based upon what I've read in the bible. It would seem to me that any deity wanting to ensure that the path to salvation is actually accessible would actually communicate that path in a clear unambiguous way.

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Again it's a choice I've made but it certainly seems to bother others that I've made that choice what I really don't understand since it does not impact you.
How does me discussing it with you and asking you questions about it imply that it bothers me?

I'm just asking questions, questions that I asked myself on my own personal journey through belief, questions I felt required answers in order for my belief to survive, because I'm interested to see if there are in fact answers to those questions that are satisfying.
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Old 11-14-2010, 08:38 PM   #247
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When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me.

- Emo Phillips
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Old 11-14-2010, 08:56 PM   #248
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Because based upon what I've read in the bible and have heard from others I believe that the God I worship is the only god. Again it's a choice I've made but it certainly seems to bother others that I've made that choice what I really don't understand since it does not impact you. Just like what ever choice you made on who to worship or not worship doesn't impact my life.
The choices you make based your belief in the God you worship likely DO impact me. The choices others might make based on your advocacy for said God can also impact me. Your individual impact is likely small, but the cumulative impact of Christian beliefs on society is huge.
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Old 11-14-2010, 08:57 PM   #249
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If you were born in another country, India or Indonesia do you think you'd still have come up with the same conclusion?

EDIT: I came to the opposite conclusion based upon what I've read in the bible. It would seem to me that any deity wanting to ensure that the path to salvation is actually accessible would actually communicate that path in a clear unambiguous way.
I can't say for sure I may not have the same belief. It would depend if someone had shared with me about Christianity. However, considering I wasn't in that situation I can't give an answer. That being said I do know of people who grew up in those countries converting to Christianity.

I don't know what is so ambiguous about asking for asking for forgiveness for your sins and accepting Christ into your heart. To me that seems like a very accessable path to salvation.

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How does me discussing it with you and asking you questions about it imply that it bothers me?

I'm just asking questions, questions that I asked myself on my own personal journey through belief, questions I felt required answers in order for my belief to survive, because I'm interested to see if there are in fact answers to those questions that are satisfying.
Sorry if I came off that way it's just been my experience that some people (not necessarily you) are looking for a "gotcha" moment in what I write. I have no problem discussing it and answering questions but I can't say that I'll be able to answer any of your questions to your satisfaction.
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Old 11-14-2010, 09:00 PM   #250
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The choices you make based your belief in the God you worship likely DO impact me. The choices others might make based on your advocacy for said God can also impact me. Your individual impact is likely small, but the cumulative impact of Christian beliefs on society is huge.
So what are you saying then? I (and other Christians) shouldn't believe in God or worship God or share my faith with others if they ask?

The choices I make personally do NOT likely impact you. I don't know you personally and you can choose to ignore what I say or not.

Christian organizations do have an impact on society. Just as so many other special interest groups have huge impacts on society, but just because you may agree with anyone of those other organizations beliefs I don't believe that your beliefs impact me directly.

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Old 11-14-2010, 09:02 PM   #251
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In a world that knows evil, an all-powerful god responsible for all creation must be evil.

Nope.
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Old 11-14-2010, 09:12 PM   #252
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So what are you saying then? I (and other Christians) shouldn't believe in God or worship God or share my faith with others if they ask?
That's the goal.
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Old 11-14-2010, 09:20 PM   #253
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I can't say for sure I may not have the same belief. It would depend if someone had shared with me about Christianity. However, considering I wasn't in that situation I can't give an answer. That being said I do know of people who grew up in those countries converting to Christianity.
Statistically though we know that what you believe depends largely on where you were born, so statistically we have a pretty good idea.

To me the fact that most people's conviction about which god is the true god comes out of where they were born says something... For me to say that I'm right and everyone else is wrong takes a whole lot more than simply happening to be born in the right place and time. And it would take a confidence in my ability to know all the options and discern the right choice that I simply cannot honestly admit to.

To think that I happen to be better informed and have better judgment than the majority of the planet is something I can't accept.

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I don't know what is so ambiguous about asking for asking for forgiveness for your sins and accepting Christ into your heart. To me that seems like a very accessable path to salvation.
Well it depends on which parts of the Bible you refer to, how salvation is attained differs depending on if you are reading Mark, Matthew, Luke or John.

But what I meant is the Bible says what it says, but it's not unambiguous that the Bible is the right one.

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Sorry if I came off that way it's just been my experience that some people (not necessarily you) are looking for a "gotcha" moment in what I write. I have no problem discussing it and answering questions but I can't say that I'll be able to answer any of your questions to your satisfaction.
That's what started me on the path I'm on, I wasn't able to answer my questions to my satisfaction either
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Old 11-14-2010, 09:23 PM   #254
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That's the goal.
So what you are saying then is that freedom of speech and freedom of religion are not important to you then.
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Old 11-14-2010, 09:27 PM   #255
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So what you are saying then is that freedom of speech and freedom of religion are not important to you then.
He didn't say he wanted to achieve that goal by force.
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Old 11-14-2010, 09:32 PM   #256
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I think of it more along the lines of if the end game does have heaven and hell and I believe in God and asked for forgiveness of my sins and am a Christian I haven't lost anything because I've still lived my life the best I can for as long as I can. However, if I haven't trusted my life to God then I have my eternity after life to lose.
So you are hedging your bets out of fear? Your god is a jerk.
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Old 11-14-2010, 09:37 PM   #257
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Statistically though we know that what you believe depends largely on where you were born, so statistically we have a pretty good idea.

To me the fact that most people's conviction about which god is the true god comes out of where they were born says something... For me to say that I'm right and everyone else is wrong takes a whole lot more than simply happening to be born in the right place and time. And it would take a confidence in my ability to know all the options and discern the right choice that I simply cannot honestly admit to.

To think that I happen to be better informed and have better judgment than the majority of the planet is something I can't accept.
Okay, well to me I am willing to accept that I support missionaries in these countries who put there lives on the line to try to share the gospel so that those people in other countries can be better informed and make and informed decision.

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Well it depends on which parts of the Bible you refer to, how salvation is attained differs depending on if you are reading Mark, Matthew, Luke or John.

But what I meant is the Bible says what it says, but it's not unambiguous that the Bible is the right one.
Well we're just going have to agree to disagree with on that.

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That's what started me on the path I'm on, I wasn't able to answer my questions to my satisfaction either
Well I've answered my questions to my satisfaction and I'm sorry you couldn't answer your questions to your satisfaction.
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Old 11-14-2010, 09:37 PM   #258
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So what you are saying then is that freedom of speech and freedom of religion are not important to you then.
Just because I want something doesn't mean I would impose it. If all Christians shared that view, I'd view them a lot more favorably.

That said, I am absolutely in favor of limits on freedom of speech and freedom of religion. They're on the hierarchy of rights, but they're not at the top. There are other, more importants rights that supercede freedom of speech and freedom of religion where they clash.
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Old 11-14-2010, 09:38 PM   #259
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He didn't say he wanted to achieve that goal by force.
I never said anything about force. I was simply confirming that he doesn't believe in free speech or freedom of religion.
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Old 11-14-2010, 09:40 PM   #260
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So you are hedging your bets out of fear? Your god is a jerk.
Well if that's what you think you are entitled to your opinion, just as I'm entitled to mine (which is that my God is not a jerk but a loving God).
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