Even with its air to ground upgrades its too single role for Canada. The F-22 is made to carry like a thousand pounds worth of air to ground internally and a similar amount externally. The F-35 can carry a lot more.
But the F-22 as a pure interceptor is untouchable.
I also think that per copy it would cost a lot more.
__________________
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We've been more then fortunate in terms of shootdowns and taking fire, but that's because we've been mainly doing air to ground against groups like ISIS or in other areas, but we don't know when that is going to change. The Russians had command of the air in Afghanistan and look how quickly that changed.
In terms of things like home defense and arctic sovereignty we have to show an interest and a strategy in terms of the defense of those areas that we claim as ours.
ETA on delivery, right now we're talking probably 2026 now, but that's not in writing, Canada does need to explore other long term strategies and not a bandaid like the Super Hornet, we need a strategy that is longer then a decade because we basically fly the wheels off of our equipment and have a generational concept ie 30 years for fighters or 20 years for armored vehicles or 40 years for in theater weapons systems.
Canada needs to actually start fixing the rust out of the forces and not just delaying it.
We're dealing with peoples lives, we should be spending money on safe guarding them as well.
I really hate that line. Especially when you consider we haven't had a plane shot down since 1974. Just because the F-35 is the most wiz-bang aircraft out there; or will be, in another decade. Maybe. Doesn't mean it is the best choice for Canada. I know we can't predict the future, but if that thing is still a disaster in 10 years I'd imagine the military boosters will be glad we picked an alternative that was ready to go at a more affordable price.
Anyway, you are gonna come back with a tonne of arguments why it is the best and must have, so I'll save you the time. I've read them. I understand them. I'm just not convinced.
My lack of trust with the government is that they're going to be buying a end of life platform, and calling it temporary, but these things have a way of stretching into permanent and job completed. There's also the mistake of thinking that the transition to the Superhornet should be easy because you know its a hornet. But its a completely different aircraft.
You could go so far as to say it's an entirely different kind of flying, altogether.
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Too bad the US doesn't restart the F-22 production line and allow certain allies to buy them.
There is talk of a restart and with some new toys like the helmet targeting system derived from the F-35 plus more of the up to date core processors and software updates to allow the newest missiles.
But even if they allowed outside sales they cost almost 3x as much as the version of the F-35 we would be getting.
Maybe with this "temporary" solution the snow birds will get upgraded to CF-18's.
Never happen. The Snowbird budget would barely keep one F-18 in the air for a season and they have to fight for that every year. There are a lot of higher ups who want the Snowbirds axed.
You are more likely to see them inherit the Hawks after the NFTC program is revamped, although I am not a fan of that either.
Even with its air to ground upgrades its too single role for Canada. The F-22 is made to carry like a thousand pounds worth of air to ground internally and a similar amount externally. The F-35 can carry a lot more.
But the F-22 as a pure interceptor is untouchable.
I also think that per copy it would cost a lot more.
I would also imagine that the US would never trust any other nation with the F-22 due to security concerns as it would be easier for Russia and China to get their hands on the specs.
The F-22 is my favorite fighter jet. Such a beast.
I would also imagine that the US would never trust any other nation with the F-22 due to security concerns as it would be easier for Russia and China to get their hands on the specs.
The F-22 is my favorite fighter jet. Such a beast.
That's a huge part of it too. The F-22 is, was so far ahead of anything else out there, especially due to its data systems, and its ability to just command the airspace around it due to those systems.
The big concern now is that the Chinese and Russians are spending tons of time and effort trying to figure out how to hack into these systems to neutralize that advantage.
The third thing out there is nobody really knows the true in war capabilities of the American weapons. When they participate in war games they hand cap their units by a bit so you never see them at an optimal combat level.
They activate noise makers in their subs and turn off a lot of their automated computers that help with reaction time. They put in internal rules of engagement, or turn off data links.
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The F-22 is already unstoppable even if they handicap it.
Air to air combat, you can't hit what you can't see. Nobody talks about how insanely good of a fighter jet it is because they didn't screw it up, but China and Russia are at a severe disadvantage.
Military industrial complex and all, I'm always amazed at the engineering prowess of the brilliant minds at the big military companies that come up with these things.
The F-22 is already unstoppable even if they handicap it.
Air to air combat, you can't hit what you can't see. Nobody talks about how insanely good of a fighter jet it is because they didn't screw it up, but China and Russia are at a severe disadvantage.
Military industrial complex and all, I'm always amazed at the engineering prowess of the brilliant minds at the big military companies that come up with these things.
It makes me wonder how good the Chinese J-31 is going to be, it looks like a virtual copy of the F-35. Its pretty clear that the Chinese have become really good at spying and gaining secrets.
To me the Russians and Chinese are closing the gap on airpower fairly quickly and are attempting to close the gap in terms of naval aviation with the introduction of full sized carriers instead of the half carriers that both were working on before.
In terms of submarine technology, the Russians have been closing the gap with the American Navy and in some ways might have taken a small leap ahead with their latest classes of of boats. The Chinese though seem to be having some significant design problems with their next gen SSN's.
In terms of missile technology the American's and Russians are literally working on the same thing with hyper fast stealth based cruise missiles, but the Russians seem to be pulling ahead with their deterrence ICBM technology.
Tank and land force wise, the Russians are closing the gap in terms of fire power and protective technology with the M1A1 and the Chinese are already looking at purchasing the T14 tank and T15 armored fighting vehicle.
The Russians are also working on upgrading their arctic and land based naval aviation units as well, the Pak DA is expected to enter service in the next 7 to 10 years and is a four engine stealth hypersonic long range bomber.
__________________
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Or we could make a transition to a defense-only military and not buy crap made to blow up brown people in a country none of us will ever see.
It's a multi-role fighter, not a B-2 Spirit. Notwithstanding your implicit dismissal of responsibility to protect, and of the defensive value of degrading your opponent's capabilities abroad, maintaining air superiority over your own country is a key element of defence.
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Originally Posted by Resurrection
Billions of dollars on fighter jets, because, why?
I mean, clearly our air force was vital in the great invasion of... oh.
That we haven't been carpet bombed either means that our air defence is not needed, or that our air defence is working. Would you like to take a chance on which it is?
"I've never had measles, so why did I get vaccinated?"
Or we could make a transition to a defense-only military and not buy crap made to blow up brown people in a country none of us will ever see.
Terrible post!
Personally I would love to visit some of these "brown people" countries someday without fear of having my head hacked off with a pocket knife.
Oh, and if we don't have fighters we'll be laughed out of NATO, Russian bears will be patrolling our northern sky's and the USA will be very pissed off at us.
Personally I would love to visit some of these "brown people" countries someday without fear of having my head hacked off with a pocket knife.
Oh, and if we don't have fighters we'll be laughed out of NATO, Russian bears will be patrolling our northern sky's and the USA will be very pissed off at us.
I think the superhornet is a very capable jet, but let's be perfectly honest with ourselves. Whatever the air force gets will be our only new jet for decades.
The only predictable thing about the future is that it's completely unpredictable. I think that a country the size of ours should be able to assert it's sovereignty over any of its territory and with force if absolutely necessary. The whole idea of the F-35 is to do so in a way where the intruder doesn't even know they're in a fight before being shot down. This is something the superhhornet simply cannot do because it lacks both the sensors and is not low observable. Very important capabilities if you want to deter any kind of hostile incursions.
Last edited by karl262; 06-08-2016 at 10:21 PM.
Reason: They're and their, lol
I think the superhornet is a very capable jet, but let's be perfectly honest with ourselves. Whatever the air force gets will be our only new jet for decades.
The only predictable thing about the future is that it's completely unpredictable. I think that a country the size of ours should be able to assert it's sovereignty over any of its territory and with force if absolutely necessary. The whole idea of the F-35 is to do so in a way where the intruder doesn't even know their in a fight until they're shot down. This is something the superhhornet simply cannot do because it lacks both the sensors and is not low observable. Very important capabilities if you want to deter any kind of hostile incursions.
The biggest advantage of the F-35 is its ability to interoperate with other aircraft and assets in battle. In other words it can see what other planes in the sky can see. Because of that it allows for better adjustments on the fly and it allows you to better utilize a small airforce.
As well the concept of the sensor suite and the way it interacts with the pilot means that the plane literally has no blind spots, you can basically see through the floor or see your 6 so your situational awareness of your personal plane and your airspace is exceptional.
Stealth is nice, but the question is always going to be when Stealth is going to be defeated, but its still almost a must have because it can slow down an enemies awareness of where you are and what your doing.
The F-35 is not made to be a pure dog fighter, its not going to out maneuver some of the pure dog fighters out there, but people that think that's a crucial requirement need to realize that the idea is to either sneak in and punch your enemy in the ass before he knows you're there. Or utilize the situational awareness that your plane has and the advantages that it gives you to pop an enemy over the horizon.
The first plane that was really designed to do that was the Tomcat with its ludicrous over 100 mile range, but that missile was really designed to pop up to 80,000 feet and expend its fuel then dive on its target and use its momentum. The other issue was that the missile was guided by the TomCats radar, so the pilot had to keep the enemy plane painted. So it was really designed to go after bombers that might attack naval formations such as the Backfire and Badger and potentially the Blinder.
The next generation of ultra long range missiles like the Amraam are self guided have a 100 mile range and are true fire and forget missiles, the F-35 is also designed to carry the Meteor which has a 300 mile range and is fire and forget and can also be guided by surveillance craft.
__________________
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
The biggest advantage of the F-35 is its ability to interoperate with other aircraft and assets in battle. In other words it can see what other planes in the sky can see. Because of that it allows for better adjustments on the fly and it allows you to better utilize a small airforce.
As well the concept of the sensor suite and the way it interacts with the pilot means that the plane literally has no blind spots, you can basically see through the floor or see your 6 so your situational awareness of your personal plane and your airspace is exceptional.
Stealth is nice, but the question is always going to be when Stealth is going to be defeated, but its still almost a must have because it can slow down an enemies awareness of where you are and what your doing.
The F-35 is not made to be a pure dog fighter, its not going to out maneuver some of the pure dog fighters out there, but people that think that's a crucial requirement need to realize that the idea is to either sneak in and punch your enemy in the ass before he knows you're there. Or utilize the situational awareness that your plane has and the advantages that it gives you to pop an enemy over the horizon.
The first plane that was really designed to do that was the Tomcat with its ludicrous over 100 mile range, but that missile was really designed to pop up to 80,000 feet and expend its fuel then dive on its target and use its momentum. The other issue was that the missile was guided by the TomCats radar, so the pilot had to keep the enemy plane painted. So it was really designed to go after bombers that might attack naval formations such as the Backfire and Badger and potentially the Blinder.
The next generation of ultra long range missiles like the Amraam are self guided have a 100 mile range and are true fire and forget missiles, the F-35 is also designed to carry the Meteor which has a 300 mile range and is fire and forget and can also be guided by surveillance craft.
The phoenix was pretty amazing for the time, just as the new Meteor is for current technology. Is it really 300 miles? Thats frikkin amazing.
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