China needs to chill out. Big time.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by peter12

Great posts by Cap'n Crunch and jammies. I don't think any of us who oppose the Chinese state hold any level of support for the myriad of atrocities conducted by authoritarian states, like Myanmar and Russia. I also don't think any of us have any support for the US prison camps, such as Guantanomo Bay. Injustice is injustice. China, in this case, has been guilty for a long time.

Why do people hate democracy in China? Because the last time, the young people of that country tried to take a stand against the Chinese government, they were run over by tanks.

Bingo.

I've always wondered what happened to that guy that stood in front of all of those Chinese tanks. I'm willing to bet his family got billed for a bullet.

At the end of the day, we can talk about American atrocities or mis government, like Gitmo and Guantanomo Bay, but the people decide of the nations course, and are allowed to pick and choose their leadership based on track record.

In China an election means one name on the ballot and a 98% approval rate. No matter how you feel about those policies.

On the statement that all people want to be free and democracy will eventually take over in China, I don't see it until everyone that was born before the 1980's is dead. They've been beaten down by the boot of the party for far too long.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Bingo.

I've always wondered what happened to that guy that stood in front of all of those Chinese tanks. I'm willing to bet his family got billed for a bullet.

At the end of the day, we can talk about American atrocities or mis government, like Gitmo and Guantanomo Bay, but the people decide of the nations course, and are allowed to pick and choose their leadership based on track record.

In China an election means one name on the ballot and a 98% approval rate. No matter how you feel about those policies.

On the statement that all people want to be free and democracy will eventually take over in China, I don't see it until everyone that was born before the 1980's is dead. They've been beaten down by the boot of the party for far too long.

I heard the guy who stood in front of those tanks escaped to Taiwan, I believe and is still alive. Anyway, for one second there, there was no greater hero.

As for democratic injustices, there is also a distinction between what a democratic state does in its foreign policy and how it treats its own citizens. George Bush will be gone in 8 months and nothing on this Earth will get him back into the White House. The Americans have a Constitution. Sometimes it's flimsy and sometimes it's abused, but it's always there.

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Bingo.
On the statement that all people want to be free and democracy will eventually take over in China, I don't see it until everyone that was born before the 1980's is dead. They've been beaten down by the boot of the party for far too long.

I agree with you there. Populations in places like China and Russia aren't even that adverse to dictatorship rule. Why? Because people like Putin and the Chinese government have figured out the key to remain in power without mass rebellion: Give the vast majority a higher standard of living and degrees of economic freedom by employing capitalist economic politices and buying off key influential groups, but quietly maim and punish all opposition and control the media to ensure the worst of your reign of terror doesn't reach newsprint or the internet.

If you've followed the last 'election' in Russia, the young newly minted middle class love Putin because of the wealth he's generated for the country and care little of his state-control of domestic media. Their freedom has been bought. I imagine much is the same in China where rapid economic advancement has blinded those who now enjoy much higher standards of living, to the atrocities and utter corruption of their ruling party.

For those that wish democracy for China or Russia, you'll have to wait for an econmic downturn in these countries. While what China has done is remarkable in an economic sense, it won't go up at that rate forever and it'll plateau. Once people can look back 5 years and realize they're no further ahead, they'll demand change. Look at the US: real incomes are at the same rate they were at the end of the Clinton Administration, while energy and imports cost more. That is ultimately why a Democrat will end up back in the White House and not the ethical issues of the Iraq war or the war on terror.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Its not the peoples government, its the governments government, the people are a source of cheap and expendible labor. The part hacks don't think in terms of the peoples welfare or prosperity they think in terms of the nations wealth and prosperity, the people are just a tool to get it there.

Cap, what brand are your shoes and where were they made?

How about you jeans / pants?

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

Cap, what brand are your shoes and where were they made?

How about you jeans / pants?

You mean I have to take off my shoes in order to join this debate.

Adiddas shoes, I don't wear Nike, Jeans are probably Levi's. my suits and dress pants are custom tailered here.

I've recently started looking at the labels when I shop now, when I see a made in China stamp I won't buy it.

There's more that I would like to do, since the Chinese government to me is fairly reprehensible in its dealings.

[Phanuthier]

Point is ... those benefiting from child labor, et al are more often then not large corporations.

Standards and quality of life in China have drastically improved in the past 5 years though. What they're doing is really no different then the USA during the industrial revolution (except with kids, I guess).

PS: so where were those shoes made?

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

Point is ... those benefiting from child labor, et al are more often then not large corporations.

Standards and quality of life in China have drastically improved in the past 5 years though. What they're doing is really no different then the USA during the industrial revolution (except with kids, I guess).

PS: so where were those shoes made?

This point has no relevant purpose to the general direction of the discussion. None of us are really criticizing the merit of development. We are criticizing the way in which China uses its own people.

When you were briefly in China would you have felt comfortable opposing government policy or even feeling that perhaps you might have a better way of doing things than the State?

[HOZ]

Lets NOT let this get so quickly forgotten

Chinese paramilitary police killed eight people and wounded dozens more when they fired on a protest by several hundred Tibetan monks and villagers, The Times has been told.
Long Live the Dalai Lama! BAM! BAM!


CBC now worried about China's censorship
The Canadian Broadcasting Corporation has formally complained to China's ambassador to Canada about the continued blocking of the broadcaster's websites in China.


And you KNOW the crapola has hit the Green Wind Turbine When the CENTRE OF THE UNIVERSE gets concerned!!!!

TO mayor gets huffy with China.
Under pressure from pro-Tibet activists over his trip to China, Toronto Mayor David Miller has written a carefully worded letter to China's consul-general here, saying human rights issues "are important to me."


Last of all.....where are all those Free Tibet people anyways????

[HotHotHeat]

I wouldn't be surprised if China won't even respond to the cbc.ca blocking. They'll probably ignore the letter and not answer phone calls.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by HotHotHeat

China won't even respond to the cbc.ca blocking. Watch. They'll ignore the letter and not answer phone calls.

They had seemed to slacken off in their censorship the past couple of days, but it's true that I can only access cbc.ca via proxy currently. Kind of hilarious considering the lead features on the homepage are currently a two part mini-series about a fictional Canadian prime minister, the Ottawa Senators season recap, and news on the Junos. Or perhaps it's the sudoku they're worried about...

It's nice that Canada doesn't really have news worth censoring.

[HotHotHeat]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

They had seemed to slacken off in their censorship the past couple of days, but it's true that I can only access cbc.ca via proxy currently. Kind of hilarious considering the lead features on the homepage are currently a two part mini-series about a fictional Canadian prime minister, the Ottawa Senators season recap, and news on the Junos. Or perhaps it's the sudoku they're worried about...

It's nice that Canada doesn't really have news worth censoring.

Obviously China's 'government task force' thinks so...

[Azure]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

It's nice that Canada doesn't really have news worth censoring.

Apparently we do. CBC is blocked. And if there is one thing we all like about CBC, its their news coverage.

I didn't realize any news is worth censoring.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by HotHotHeat

Obviously China's 'government task force' thinks so...

Originally Posted by Azure

Apparently we do. CBC is blocked. And if there is one thing we all like about CBC, its their news coverage.

I didn't realize any news is worth censoring.

Oh it's not just news worth censoring that gets censored here. I have to use a proxy just to read Garfield minus Garfield on a daily basis, as well as a tonne of other totally innocuous websites.

Anyways, I was just poking a little fun at the lead content of our national media website. I mean, even in the news section the top headlines include the Canadian womens hockey team winning a game 11-0 (against China no less ). I'd much rather have that than a lot of other countries' disaster-related big news. Who wouldn't?

[HotHotHeat]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

Oh it's not just news worth censoring that gets censored here. I have to use a proxy just to read Garfield minus Garfield on a daily basis, as well as a tonne of other totally innocuous websites.

Anyways, I was just poking a little fun at the lead content of our national media website. I mean, even in the news section the top headlines include the Canadian womens hockey team winning a game 11-0 (against China no less ). I'd much rather have that than a lot of other countries' disaster-related big news. Who wouldn't?

Now there's a reason to censor the news!

[Azure]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

Oh it's not just news worth censoring that gets censored here. I have to use a proxy just to read Garfield minus Garfield on a daily basis, as well as a tonne of other totally innocuous websites.

Anyways, I was just poking a little fun at the lead content of our national media website. I mean, even in the news section the top headlines include the Canadian womens hockey team winning a game 11-0 (against China no less ). I'd much rather have that than a lot of other countries' disaster-related big news. Who wouldn't?

Well God knows Garfield will be the end of China.

[flylock shox]

Originally Posted by Azure

Well God knows Garfield will be the end of China.

I believe they refer to him there as "the Orange Peril."

[mmanzz]

Great job by the protesters in Paris today!! Very Pro-Tibet and the IOC is now saying the Tibet issue must be resolved by the host country. Up till now, the IOC was saying "no politics".

The message is getting out and people are becoming aware, the Olympics are serving the purpose of making people aware of the Tibetan Nation. That is far more significant then then playing games.

[GirlySports]

Hooray!

Still #1

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe....ap/index.html