[PGT] Flames lose to Mammoth 3-1

[Calgary4LIfe]

Hartley was an ass, with an exceptionally short shelf life. However, I think there are some positives from him:

• He is a great developmental coach
• His teams play an entertaining style of game
• Underrated defensively - he demanded defensive responsibility
• throughout most of his NHL coaching career, he always seemed to have a year where his team exceeded expectations at every stop
• Fantastic with the media

Yep, vets hated him, but I would love to hear what the younger players thought of him too. Guys like Backlund (who I remember Hartley tearing a strip off of Backlund after he didn't cycle back to cover for a pinching defencemen), or Monahan... or vets that were doing well, like Hudler, or Brodie, or Giordano. Vets on the fringe - Hartley seemed to really rub the wrong way, that's for sure, and I think it was probably needless. All the stories I have heard have always been from the older vets who were just hanging on. Not that their opinions don't count, of course. McGrattan didn't like Hartley either, but the then again, Hartley didn't use McGrattan other than for 8 games in the 2014-15 season.


What I do find interesting is how Conroy has referred back to him a number of times since becoming GM, and he has always just said positive things. I think he liked Hartley, but it has only been tidbits here and there. The what is interesting about it is that he brought Hartley up voluntarily, and was never asked about Hartley. I would figure if he didn't like him, he wouldn't have brought him up at all to say good things.


I doubt Hartley ever gets back into the NHL. I do wonder what he could do with a team like Buffalo right now, however He would either really get that ship righted for a season or two, or maybe it would just explode and end up worse than ever.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

Hartley was an ass, with an exceptionally short shelf life. However, I think there are some positives from him:
[LIST][*]He is a great developmental coach

Evidence of this?
One of the anecdotes is that Shane O'Brien intervened because of how brutally Hartley was treating Sven Baertschi.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Evidence of this?
One of the anecdotes is that Shane O'Brien intervened because of how brutally Hartley was treating Sven Baertschi.

Probably because Bennett had his best season as a flame under Hartley at 19

[Goriders]

I guess his job isn’t to be everyone’s buddy. I’ve seen many different coaching styles. All of which could be effective in the right circumstances and with the right group of people.

Dictatorships tend to be effective at the start but lose steam.

[Strange Brew]

Conroy references things he learned from Hartley once in a while. The team has had multiple coaches during his tenure in management but feels to me like he references Hartley more than any.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Toonage

And Atlanta.

Hartley is overrated around these parts based off that overachieving 2014/15 season. Guy is not a great coach.

He and Crawford crafted legacies off of elite Avalanche teams.

He's got a couple of the very worst seasons as a Flames coach. And that 2015 "run" was one round against a smoke and mirrors Vancouver team that was out of the POs the year before and for 4 years afterwards, and were essentially bullied into submission. They didn't even win on offence - they won because Vancouver only scored more than 2 goals in one of their losses. The Flames were easily handled in round two by the Ducks, who scored 3 or more every game.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Probably because Bennett had his best season as a flame under Hartley at 19

Was that on Hartley? Or Backlund? Every kid who has played with Backlund has had a good season (and Honzek looks good beside him).

[NegativeSpace]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

It's possible but it's very tough.

If Flames are 13-13-1 that's 27 points through 27 games.

To get to 96 points they would need to get 69 points in the final 55 games. 32-18-5 (.627 points percentage, 103 point pace). That is going to be very tough for this group.

It also does not afford the group much more opportunity for another that happens to nearly every team, every season. Even now they need to stop the bleeding quickly and put together some wins.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Evidence of this?
One of the anecdotes is that Shane O'Brien intervened because of how brutally Hartley was treating Sven Baertschi.

That was the only exception I have heard of. Every other young player under Hartley seemed to have improved.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Evidence of this?
One of the anecdotes is that Shane O'Brien intervened because of how brutally Hartley was treating Sven Baertschi.

Heard the same on Bennett.

Mind games after mind games. Apparently some vets went to Treliving and said if you keep him he's going to wreck player x and player y.

[Bingo]

Hartley's 14/15 season had the Flames 4th in PDO, 25th in xGA60 and 27th in xGF60.

Lot of bounces for a team that shouldn't have been close.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

That was the only exception I have heard of. Every other young player under Hartley seemed to have improved.

Aside from the guys with big time talent like Gaudreau, Monahan and Bennett, who?

Jooris started hot, then was way worse the next year. Ferland had 4 goals under Hartley, 15 and 21 under Gulutzan. Granlund didn't improve under Hartley. Bouma had a big year, then regressed like crazy.

And aside from them the Flames had a ton of kids come through who never made it past a few games. Maybe they wouldn't under any coach but they definitely didn't under Hartley.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Aside from the guys with big time talent like Gaudreau, Monahan and Bennett, who?

Jooris started hot, then was way worse the next year. Ferland had 4 goals under Hartley, 15 and 21 under Gulutzan. Granlund didn't improve under Hartley. Bouma had a big year, then regressed like crazy.

And aside from them the Flames had a ton of kids come through who never made it past a few games. Maybe they wouldn't under any coach but they definitely didn't under Hartley.

Brodie, Colborne, Backlund took huge strides, Gaudreau, Monahan...


There were many.


I know we are on complete opposite sides of the spectrum when it comes to Hartley, but if you watched the away broadcasts, so many crews would comment on how much of a teacher Hartley was on the ice even on game day morning skates. They lauded him all over the NHL.


Yes, he was an asshat and plays mindgames, and thus why he is unemployable except for the KHL, but he did a lot of good work too.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Hartley's 14/15 season had the Flames 4th in PDO, 25th in xGA60 and 27th in xGF60.

Lot of bounces for a team that shouldn't have been close.

Underlying metrics were awful - no argument. However, that was an extremely hard-working and resilient group. It was a rebuilding team that exceeded expectations, but they worked hard. Some credit has to go to Hartley, even if his methods - both statistically as well as personally - were unsustainable.


PDO is a stat that I usually don't like much, as basically good teams have better PDO than bad teams, on average, and the assumption that is should revert back to 100 is erroneous in my opinion. I wouldn't expect a bad team's PDO to revert up to 100, and I wouldn't expect an elite team to revert back down to 100 if they are at 105 or 110 - calling them lucky always seemed like a weird thing to say.


In this case, I think Hartley's PDO was elevated because of the system. That year, from what I remember, they would collapse into a defensive shell, right? Allow outside shots, protect the middle of the ice, block shots like crazy - but one thing that team was really good at IMO, was on the transition (at least that season). They would end up with a lot of odd-man rushes, which had higher chances. Their shot volume was low.


I think the system + team construction resulted in a weird PDO that year. I am not sure I would call it 'lucky', however I am not sure how I would describe it. I defer to you as you are much more knowledgeable than I am, but perhaps it is something to mull over. The reason I say this is because I remember so many posts that year after a win in which the Flames would get obliterated on the advanced metrics, but a lot of comments saying: "Weird, it didn't seem like they got outplayed. The other team didn't do enough to penetrate Calgary's defence." - those sort of comments anyway. That's 11 years ago now -sheesh.. time flies.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

Brodie, Colborne, Backlund took huge strides, Gaudreau, Monahan...


There were many.


I know we are on complete opposite sides of the spectrum when it comes to Hartley, but if you watched the away broadcasts, so many crews would comment on how much of a teacher Hartley was on the ice even on game day morning skates. They lauded him all over the NHL.


Yes, he was an asshat and plays mindgames, and thus why he is unemployable except for the KHL, but he did a lot of good work too.

I'm sure he did. This stuff is never black and white. There were no doubt good work he did. But I have little patience for guys who treat people like he reportedly did. I think his era as a coach with the Flames has been romanticized to some degree.
And I don't think what away broadcasts say is evidence of anything. They are seeking storylines and things they can say about the team they know less about. It's an easy thing to talk about, but not backed by much substance.

Anyways I agree he wasn't all bad.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I'm sure he did. This stuff is never black and white. There were no doubt good work he did. But I have little patience for guys who treat people like he reportedly did. I think his era as a coach with the Flames has been romanticized to some degree.
And I don't think what away broadcasts say is evidence of anything. They are seeking storylines and things they can say about the team they know less about. It's an easy thing to talk about, but not backed by much substance.

Anyways I agree he wasn't all bad.

That was my point exactly - he wasn't all bad. Terrible in the way he managed players (and that's an understatement!), but he did a lot of good as well. It seems he has become the most polarizing coach.. ever in Flames history? I can't think of another coach who was more polarizing. Crisp comes to mind with how little credit he gets for the cup win, vs how sick the players were of him too.

I doubt he ever finds a job in the NHL again, but boy would that be interesting with today's players! I am sure he would last longer than Babcock, but I doubt he finishes a full-season if he hasn't changed.

[Badgers Nose]

nvm

[VilleN]

I wish they were called the Utah Mammoths. I don't care for these singular names. Not one bit... That is all.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

That was my point exactly - he wasn't all bad. Terrible in the way he managed players (and that's an understatement!), but he did a lot of good as well. It seems he has become the most polarizing coach.. ever in Flames history? I can't think of another coach who was more polarizing. Crisp comes to mind with how little credit he gets for the cup win, vs how sick the players were of him too.

I doubt he ever finds a job in the NHL again, but boy would that be interesting with today's players! I am sure he would last longer than Babcock, but I doubt he finishes a full-season if he hasn't changed.

I think Sutter is somewhat polarizing, at least V2.0 of him.
And I think those old-school coaches are becoming more rare. Torts in Philly is an interesting one to watch, including because it doesn't seem to be working well right now between he and Michkov (0 points so far).

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I think Sutter is somewhat polarizing, at least V2.0 of him.
And I think those old-school coaches are becoming more rare. Torts in Philly is an interesting one to watch, including because it doesn't seem to be working well right now between he and Michkov (0 points so far).

You've forgotten that he got fired already, and it is Tocchet's team now.


You are absolutely right though - it didn't go well for him, and even Couturier has been taking shots at him earlier this year.


I wouldn't want Tortorella anywhere near Calgary (not that I would want Hartley back either).