Do Western governments currently diplomatically and financially back the Ethiopian regime responsible for the 2000 civilians massacred last year, or is this perhaps an apples to oranges comparison that you're dishonestly using in your tired, weird crusade against the progressive left?
Ethiopia is one of the closest allies the U.S. has in Africa.
I agree that the whole Jewish state thing is stupid. I also agree that the Israeli society as a whole can be quite racist. I grew up there, I know! You'd either be Russian, Moroccan, or one of the religious sects. Everyone in that society thinks that their group is god's gift to earth and everyone else is beneath them. That said both sides are equally racist!
That said when you are applying for work, no one asks you to prove how Jewish you are. Yes I don't like transportation not working on Saturdays, or having to eat Kosher in restaurants(though that might have changed now), but aside from that and people being stupid there really isn't too much harm in it.
The official justification for a Jewish state is that they want to prevent the holocaust from happening again. They are afraid of becoming the minority, and Israel doing nothing in a similar situation. I agree though, that now its mostly an excuse. However, you really need to be away from the situation in order to see it this way. It's almost impossible to see the entire picture when you live there.
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It seems pretty clear that israel is trying to kill off the Palestinians. Not all at once, that would turn the world opinion against them but slowly. A slow genocide.
I miss Michael Brooks so much.
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The problem with this line of thinking is that they do target civilians. They could choose not to. They do bomb schools, hospitals, shelters, media buildings, childcare centers, homes. They could choose not to. They have an overwhelming military advantage. Their power outranks Hamas by an insane degree. It doesn't make it ok that Hamas hides rockets under schools, but Israel has a choice.
They know Hamas is using civilians as shields. They still target the shield. Let's not pretend Israel is not targeting innocent people. They are, with the end goal of striking Hamas. They are perfectly happy to kill 100 innocent Palestinians if it means they kill 10 Hamas.
Okay how would you target Hamas? Using a ground operation? where all said might is neutralized? Would you go hunting them door to door? Of course they target those places, they are trying to stop rockets being fired at their country! Here is another part about killing 100 innocents first of all 1/3 of the rockets made in Gaza actually fall in Gaza! Not all those 100 innocents are killed by Israel. Also, you have a media war, which means that Hamas does in fact recruits teenager as a part of its rocket crews. Why? because it is better press when Israel kills children. And Israel isn't perfectly happy killing 100 civilians to get to 10... that's where we disagree. If Israel was so happy about that ratio, then they would've bombed Shifa Hospital by now, especially since there are bunkers underneath.
I'm not happy about killing one civilian in Gaza. I have a problem that we really can't tell who is who. As I was saying Israel would be more than happy if the rockets would simply stop. The problem is that whenever it's convenient they are fired. It's something the Hamas holds over Israel's head. Whenever it is convenient they fire rockets, then they quickly ask for a cease fire. I honestly don't have a solution.
I am personally worried about my grandparents who live in Israel... They don't have a bomb shelter, they are instructed to run to the staircase in their apartment building. They have a hard time sleeping, and don't bother running anywhere because of their advanced age. They also have done nothing to anyone in the Palestinian territory...
^ People don’t need to have answers on how to resolve a conflict in order to be opposed from launching explosives into populated areas.
Okay, so yeah I'm opposed to it... unless that populated area is firing rockets at me first. Then it's a military area with civilians that refuse to move for the duration of the military operation.
They also have done nothing to anyone in the Palestinian territory...
Yes, we are all worried about the innocents civilians in this issue. But it isn't one side lives that matter more.
The Palestine's living squalor and dying due to attacks are just as worthy of living better lives as your grandparents. Many of these people just want to live and haven't done anything to anyone in the Israel territory.
Okay how would you target Hamas? Using a ground operation? where all said might is neutralized? Would you go hunting them door to door? Of course they target those places, they are trying to stop rockets being fired at their country! Here is another part about killing 100 innocents first of all 1/3 of the rockets made in Gaza actually fall in Gaza! Not all those 100 innocents are killed by Israel. Also, you have a media war, which means that Hamas does in fact recruits teenager as a part of its rocket crews. Why? because it is better press when Israel kills children. And Israel isn't perfectly happy killing 100 civilians to get to 10... that's where we disagree. If Israel was so happy about that ratio, then they would've bombed Shifa Hospital by now, especially since there are bunkers underneath.
I'm not happy about killing one civilian in Gaza. I have a problem that we really can't tell who is who. As I was saying Israel would be more than happy if the rockets would simply stop. The problem is that whenever it's convenient they are fired. It's something the Hamas holds over Israel's head. Whenever it is convenient they fire rockets, then they quickly ask for a cease fire. I honestly don't have a solution.
I am personally worried about my grandparents who live in Israel... They don't have a bomb shelter, they are instructed to run to the staircase in their apartment building. They have a hard time sleeping, and don't bother running anywhere because of their advanced age. They also have done nothing to anyone in the Palestinian territory...
Israeli society is not asking themselves "What conditions have caused this uproar from the Palestinians and what introspection should we do to make the situation better."
What Israeli society is asking is, "How many toddlers should we kill so that the arabs will be brought to their knees..again."
I'm reading on twitter Palestinians saying we have been cornered and raped for 73 years. How do we stop them from raping us? Who will stop them from raping us?
That's why you have Hamas. The Occupation. The rape and dispossession of the Palestinian people and culture.
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Okay, so yeah I'm opposed to it... unless that populated area is firing rockets at me first. Then it's a military area with civilians that refuse to move for the duration of the military operation.
What about Israel targeting health care workers and children?
I'm not happy about killing one civilian in Gaza. I have a problem that we really can't tell who is who. As I was saying Israel would be more than happy if the rockets would simply stop. The problem is that whenever it's convenient they are fired. It's something the Hamas holds over Israel's head. Whenever it is convenient they fire rockets, then they quickly ask for a cease fire. I honestly don't have a solution.
I am personally worried about my grandparents who live in Israel... They don't have a bomb shelter, they are instructed to run to the staircase in their apartment building. They have a hard time sleeping, and don't bother running anywhere because of their advanced age. They also have done nothing to anyone in the Palestinian territory...
That's easy, stop doing things to Palestinians that make Hama's look like hero's to their people for trying to oppose Israel, stop taking more land.
Israel doesnt even have to give back land for an uneasy peace, it just has to stop stealing land, it has to reign in its own repugnant people but Likud needs those racist scum to stay in power, this whole conflict was created by Bibi to keep him in power
Yes, we are all worried about the innocents civilians in this issue. But it isn't one side lives that matter more.
The Palestine's living squalor and dying due to attacks are just as worthy of living better lives as your grandparents. Many of these people just want to live and haven't done anything to anyone in the Israel territory.
Where did I ever say that one side mattered more to me? I have simply brought up an example from my experience. My point is that it is lunacy to expect there to be no response when one side fires rockets at you.
Do I want the conflict to stop? absolutely!
Do I hate Palestinians for supporting Hamas? No.
Do I think it is easier to be just from the safety of your home in Canada? Yes.
You are talking in ideals, which don't work during war.
Do I think this conflict is profitable? Yes. In fact I think that during any conflict around the globe there are people getting rich off it. Usually, those are the people in power of both sides.
From my understanding the latest bout began for two reasons. One is COVID and the Israeli side did not allow access to the holy places during Ramadan to Palestinians without a vaccine. The second was the closure of such places after the partial destruction of those places by vandals. As far as I know Hamas gave Israel an ultimatum to open those places and allow access to them. When the time ran out they began firing.
Thank you. I googled the issue and the first hit mentioned the expulsions, and the cutting of Palestinian speaker systems during, I think Ramadan. There was no mention of Hamas outisde of retaliatory actions.
Last edited by Alpha_Q; 05-18-2021 at 02:08 PM.
Reason: missed al in Palestinian
Where did I ever say that one side mattered more to me? I have simply brought up an example from my experience. My point is that it is lunacy to expect there to be no response when one side fires rockets at you.
There is a lot here and you are clearly close to this and rightly concerned about family.
But I would say that the Israeli response is never proportional to the attack.
Hamas get about 10% of it's rocket's through anti-missile defenses, 100% of Israeli munitions get on target.
The numbers of dead/wounded/homeless in Gaza is far far greater than in Israeli.
I guess what I am saying is it would look better is Israel showed some restrained.
__________________
Captain James P. DeCOSTE, CD, 18 Sep 1993
Hamas are a terrible Government who have done nothing for the average Gazan and would be run out of town on a rail if Israel didnt keep constantly give Hamas its only selling point 'we will oppose them, we will strike back when they steal our land and shoot our children'
Israeli society is not asking themselves "What conditions have caused this uproar from the Palestinians and what introspection should we do to make the situation better."
What Israeli society is asking is, "How many toddlers should we kill so that the arabs will be brought to their knees..again."
I'm reading on twitter Palestinians saying we have been cornered and raped for 73 years. How do we stop them from raping us? Who will stop them from raping us?
That's why you have Hamas. The Occupation. The rape and dispossession of the Palestinian people and culture.
Okay, you are basing your opinion on an extreme opinion you saw on twitter, in order to justify another extreme opinion. Israeli citizens don't go to Gaza to rape or oppress anyone. In fact, they just want quiet. In all honesty Israel does provide water and power to Gaza. They let trucks full of money pass, but that is all oppression. You just see what you want to see. You need a justification to say one side is right the other is wrong. In any conflict both sides are wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mull
What about Israel targeting health care workers and children?
Israel isn't targeting health care workers and children. The media targets those stories when they do happen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by afc wimbledon
That's easy, stop doing things to Palestinians that make Hama's look like hero's to their people for trying to oppose Israel, stop taking more land.
Israel doesnt even have to give back land for an uneasy peace, it just has to stop stealing land, it has to reign in its own repugnant people but Likud needs those racist scum to stay in power, this whole conflict was created by Bibi to keep him in power
Again doing things to Palestinians... Israel wants nothing to do with the Palestinians... That's why they built a wall around Gaza so that maybe if there's separation there won't be conflict... As soon as exploding buses wasn't an option Hamas transitioned to rockets. Again, is Israel a saint that's doing everything right? of course not! Is Palestine? also no. Both sides are to blame... but it is a lot easier to see when your loved ones are not the ones suffering from either rockets or other types of munitions. That's why both sides hate each other. They are both trying to protect loved ones from getting hurt.
Okay, you are basing your opinion on an extreme opinion you saw on twitter, in order to justify another extreme opinion. Israeli citizens don't go to Gaza to rape or oppress anyone. In fact, they just want quiet. In all honesty Israel does provide water and power to Gaza. They let trucks full of money pass, but that is all oppression. You just see what you want to see. You need a justification to say one side is right the other is wrong. In any conflict both sides are wrong.
Israel isn't targeting health care workers and children. The media targets those stories when they do happen.
Again doing things to Palestinians... Israel wants nothing to do with the Palestinians... That's why they built a wall around Gaza so that maybe if there's separation there won't be conflict... As soon as exploding buses wasn't an option Hamas transitioned to rockets. Again, is Israel a saint that's doing everything right? of course not! Is Palestine? also no. Both sides are to blame... but it is a lot easier to see when your loved ones are not the ones suffering from either rockets or other types of munitions. That's why both sides hate each other. They are both trying to protect loved ones from getting hurt.
When you take land in the West Bank you frighten and anger all Palestinians, you also drum up anti Israeli support across the Muslim world, stopping settlements isnt a solution but its the basic starting point and if Israel wants to survive in a century or more when the US has fallen from power and they sit without allies in a wholly Muslim region Israel needs to make peace now
There is a lot here and you are clearly close to this and rightly concerned about family.
But I would say that the Israeli response is never proportional to the attack.
Hamas get about 10% of it's rocket's through anti-missile defenses, 100% of Israeli munitions get on target.
The numbers of dead/wounded/homeless in Gaza is far far greater than in Israeli.
I guess what I am saying is it would look better is Israel showed some restrained.
I agree that it's never proportional. I just don't see why it should be. If your opponent knows you will fire one rocket back for everyone of his, he can plan exactly how to strike and what response you will have.
Why doesn't Hamas build air defenses instead of spending all its budget on rockets? Each rocket the Israeli defense fires costs $100,000 it takes two rockets to bring down each rocket fired that is going to hit an urban area. Again, you're trying to quantify war. Israel is trying to send a message that shooting rockets at it is a bad idea. Is it working? no. I don't know what would work, no one does.
I just want the conflict to be over with as quickly as possible. I want there to be as little casualties on both sides. I don't want a single Palestinian dead. I also don't want the default action whenever you disagree with an Israeli policy to be fire a rocket and see what happens.
Firstly, the application of terms applied to the Nazis is very offensive when describing a conflict that involves Jews.
Secondly, even the eviction is far more complex than you are letting on. Jews are attempting to evict Arabs from a single property they legally own. The Arabs stopped paying rent decades ago. The history of the property is that it was legally owned by Jews. When Jordan invaded, in 1949, they gave the forcibly removed the Jewish owners, and gave the property to Jordanian landlords. The Jordanians then moved Arabs onto the property and had them pay rent to the Jordanian landlords. When Israel gained control of the land in 1967 they reinstated legal title to the Jews, and allowed the Arabs to remain as long as they paid rent, which they stopped doing. There's been a court case ongoing since, which has involved offers by the Israeli government to compensate the current Arab occupants.
But I guess instead of looking at the actual facts it's easier just to try and shout down the other side with a bunch of ignorant name calling.
I apologize for offending you and possibly hurting your feelings on the matter. I asked the question - without shouting, and using names ??? as far as I know - because I've heard the term used by people I normally consider level headed. They are not pro Palestine, or pro Hamas, or pro Israel for that matter.
Maybe I should not have asked that question in an emotional thread.
I remember following this closely in the late 70s and 80s (as closely as a kid could follow it) but I've long since lost track of who is occupying what and where and which farm/heights/bank belongs or belonged to which group, let alone the different countries that recognized the various annexations. I do believe the UN is under the belief that many of these areas are occupied by Israel with no legal validity. That was from a CNN article from May 12. https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/12/middl...cmd/index.html
Last edited by Alpha_Q; 05-18-2021 at 02:08 PM.
Reason: added url
When you take land in the West Bank you frighten and anger all Palestinians, you also drum up anti Israeli support across the Muslim world, stopping settlements isnt a solution but its the basic starting point and if Israel wants to survive in a century or more when the US has fallen from power and they sit without allies in a wholly Muslim region Israel needs to make peace now
I agree that the settlements are stupid! It's a money grab operation for those in power. The problem is that those settlement are a tiny part of a population. Lets compare settlers to Hamas for a second, both sides are extremists... The problem is that you think its okay to punish and group every citizen in Israel for their crimes against the Palestinians. It's not okay to do the same to the Palestinians though.
My point is that every culture has extremists... The average Israeli just wants to live his/her life.
