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Old 12-18-2017, 09:37 AM   #241
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I loved it, but I also noticed something really interesting about the composition of the film. I had read something about the "secret artistry of the Prequel Movies", and a storytelling theory called Ring Theory. It seemed to me, that this Ring Theory was fully understood, and that the movie was written with this Ring Theory in mind. I quite like that, honestly.

http://www.starwarsringtheory.com/
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Old 12-18-2017, 10:32 AM   #242
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Ok so I get that they really want to complete the transition to the new trilogy and characters here but I definitely had some issues with the story in general.

My feedback is all negative but revolves more around how they missed the mark and wasted opportunities. What we are left with isn't garbage but it could have been so much more. When I move past some of the disappointment in these decisions, the movie we're left with isn't bad. Not great, just ok.

What was the deal with the opening crawl? So they blow up the starkiller and the crawl reads like it was meant for the first movie in the trilogy. It was as if they never had this amazing victory in the first movie at all. Seriously, this crawl didn't even mention their huge victory. It just reads like they lost the last battle and yet picks up immediately after the first movie.

Next issue, also relating to the crawl. Let's go back to the TFA crawl for a second.

Here is the TFA crawl:

Spoiler!


So if Snoke and the First Order were obsessed with finding Luke, what the eff happened to that storyline in this movie? It was basically ignored as a plot point until Rey confronted Snoke on his ship and he tried to read her mind. Did Rey even mention it to Luke when she visited him?

I also felt like Rey did a piss poor job of explaining to Luke why he was needed in the resistance. Did she ever tell him that if he didn't come back his sister would die with all the other resistance fighters? Where was the brother sister bond? The entire Rey and Luke storyline was ok but it was missing that Luke/Leia link. Yet another example of the filmmakers trying to distance themselves from relying on the original trilogy characters and diluting the current movie in the process.

They needed to better utilize the classic characters to supplement the new characters. Make them integral parts of these relationships, not ignore the relationships by inserting the new characters.

Also tying back to something I posted about previously with regards to Snoke, I notice it says the first order has risen from the ashes in Luke's absence. So maybe Kylo was the key to Snoke rising to power. I had previously theorized that Snoke replaced the emperor. Reads more like the empire lay in waiting in the ashes and then rose up unexpectedly.


Ok next item in regards to the lack of proper continuity between the movies. So Leia and the resistance are relying on Luke to come save their asses but she doesn't even know that he wants no part of it? So what happens if they find Luke half way thru TFA, he just says screw you and lets them die? Luke being as disgruntled and needing redemption wasn't stressed enough. I get we could gather that he was in hiding because he failed with Kylo but it never felt like Luke was the one that needed saving. Again, felt like they didn't want to focus on Luke ruining Leia and Han's kid because that would focus on the original characters. Big missed opportunity for Rey to represent his redemption and fix his broken relationship with his sister. Rey needed to be the tie that binds them. They did this a little bit but I feel like it missed the mark a bit. Could have been amazing instead of just ok.

Now let's talk about Kylo. So much missed opportunity here. Ok so he force links with Rey (unbeknownst to either that it was Snoke's doing) and she hates him. But she senses good and starts to like him. She ditches Luke and his 15 minutes of training to join Kylo who then becomes a fully sympathetic bad guy but sort of good guy who kills Snoke. But then he's bad again. Like WTF? It's one thing if they want to throw in shades of grey but once you've killed Snoke, we are now left with a villain that has the presence of a wet dish rag. And that is all the more frustrating because I felt like they could have done such a good job with Adam Driver having him move beyond whiny villain and into deep troubled, parent murdering, mistrusting kid who hated his parents and felt betrayed by his uncle.

Why wasn't Kylo's turn on Rey part of the plan? This would have been so much better if he was in on it with Snoke and cheated her to think he had good left in him. They spent the first hour of the movie making their main villain sympathetic. Then when they needed him to be a villain again it was like "oh crap, better have him do an about face and be evil again!". Such a letdown that they didn't explore his anger more, his evil, his betrayal of his family, his betrayal of Luke and his betrayal of Rey.

Quick sidenote. If the First Order didn't rise up until after Luke went into hiding it kind of cheapens Kylo's fall to the dark side. His story works better if he hates his parents because they are always off fighting in space and he feels alone and isolated and the one person who gave him love, Luke, ended up mistrusting him. Would have been a great turn.

See it isn't Snoke that's interesting and his back story I wanted, it is Kylo and Leia/Han and Luke. You know, the characters that I'm supposed to care about. That's why I think it is odd people want more Snoke. He's meaningless. But Kylo and Luke and Leia/Han aren't. I have a built in caring for their characters and their fates.


Ok so back to the main plot here. Movie starts and the rebels are on the run, very ESB-esque, and I'm totally down with that but then they get into this weird stalemate where we start focusing on fuel consumption? And then we watch a 2 hour slow speed chase through space? C'mon seriously? This is the best the writers could think of after 40 years? It was just so uninteresting. And then to throw in yet another sabotoge/heist storyline? We've seen that in IV, VI, VII, R1 and now this. What is this Ocean's Eleven in space? It is a friggin war with resistance fighters. Can't find anything that might be interesting? Pull something from history, make it about rebels defending a base, make it about them pulling off an attack, protecting an innocent world where the empire wants their resources, anything!


And moving on the the space casino. The idea of a storyline where several of the main characters must complete a side quest - whether it is for knowledge, find a person, obtain some resource, pretty much anything except a heist plot could have been amazing - but instead we get this. Totally get what they were going for. Brings focus on our main characters, helps build tension for the main space chase story which was kind of boring if they just sit there and wait to die and allows them to show us the dark side of the galaxy outside of just the empire.

I'm even on board with them inserting some wackiness. The original trilogy did a masterful job of blending the crazy galaxy with the main quest that had some serious consequences. Space casino wasn't awful, it just left so much lacking, just like most of the other storylines.

They could have really killed it with this movie. Instead they made all these moves to throw off our expectations and didn't do a good enough job with the new characters and refused to just pay homage to the classic characters.

One last thing. Rey's training. It wasn't awful but it was missing a lot and was wildly inconsistent. At one point, I think the Kylo flashback scene in the rain, where Rey and Luke have this big argument and blow out about him almost killing a kid and literally the next scene is Luke's voiceover "ok, lesson 2". WTF? They were both just like "ok enough arguing for one night, let's go to bed and then pretend like it didn't happen come morning!"

And why was he even training her? He was the super important thing that the rebels needed but now Rey's all like "oh you'll train me? Yeah eff those guys, they might die but I'm super hyped on becoming a jedi, let's do this first."

It's not like they sent her to Luke knowing she needed to be trained. They were looking for him because Snoke and Kylo were looking for him and they needed him for "hope" (ugh). Maybe the story should have continued with the "chase" being the empire closing in on Luke. Snoke/Kylo after Luke (with the force meetings between Kylo/Rey as a good distraction and maybe how they're tracking her), Finn/Poe desperately trying to escape from the rest of the fleet/Captain Phasma/General "worst casting/performance ever" Huxley.

The movie was ok as it is but they could have done so much more with it. And it isn't even like they sacrificed story and meaningful plot to focus on mindless action like the prequels. They just missed the mark on some key areas and that's disappointing.

Just like after TFA, the potential is there for a great next movie.

EDIT: Something else came to mind. Rey/Luke should have been like the hobbits and the ents. He should have resisted and she should have found a reason to have him come back, console Leia about her husband's death or something, I don't know, and the minute he got there and saw the huddled masses aboard the ship or in the hideout, he should have been overwhelmed with emotion and got all pissed off and declared war just like treebeard did. God that would have been amazeballs. And at the same time we could have seen the reconciliation with his sister and all his guilt for ruining their kid and then having that kid kill his best friend and her husband and Rey representing his return.

Last edited by Cecil Terwilliger; 12-18-2017 at 10:52 AM.
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Old 12-18-2017, 10:34 AM   #243
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You can also accept you like a bad movie instead of endlessly trying to prove it’s great. I like Fast and Furious movies, even though they’re super dumb. I just had higher expectations for Star Wars.
Wouldn't it be the people that dislike the movie having to accept that they dislike what is actually a good movie?

Considering it's at 93% on Rotten Tomatoes, and 86 on metacritic it feels like it's actually the people that dislike the movie that have to accept it's not as bad as they think it is.
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Old 12-18-2017, 10:50 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by SuperMatt18 View Post
Wouldn't it be the people that dislike the movie having to accept that they dislike what is actually a good movie?

Considering it's at 93% on Rotten Tomatoes, and 86 on metacritic it feels like it's actually the people that dislike the movie that have to accept it's not as bad as they think it is.


There's a pretty huge difference between what the fans and the critics are saying.
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Old 12-18-2017, 10:53 AM   #245
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There's a pretty huge difference between what the fans and the critics are saying.
Which fans are those?

Reaction is mostly positive in this thread and anywhere else I look.
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Old 12-18-2017, 10:53 AM   #246
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Superfans have written an untold amount of fanfic in their mind of how this should go and since it isn’t going that way they’re very upset. Pretty standard stuff. After sleeping on it I still really liked it. I mean the movie hit you over the head about letting the past go and killing it if you have to. Nostalgia is a hell of a drug.
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Old 12-18-2017, 10:53 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger View Post
So if Snoke and the First Order were obsessed with finding Luke, what the eff happened to that storyline in this movie? It was basically ignored as a plot point until Rey confronted Snoke on his ship and he tried to read her mind. Did Rey even mention it to Luke when she visited him?
Very little time passed between the ending of TFA and the start of this one, so I guess the First Order was just taking the time to finish off the Resistance.

But if they could just finish off the Resistance, why did they really need to find Luke? One exiled Jedi shouldn't be taking up that much of their time. Hell, neither Jedi in the OT had any significant part in the Rebellion, and both were battle hardened Clone Wars commanders whose experience would have been invaluable. Merely driving Luke away would have been enough.

Maybe it was about revenge, and the dark side had them overcome by the quest of it, and them trying to focus on getting revenge against Luke made them miss what was going on around them, meaning dwelling on the past was their downfall. What a nicely tied up story that could have been, that goes with the theme this movie was trying to cram down our throats while simultaneously holding onto the past with books and the Falcon and such.


Yeah it's sloppy. But for me that is what sums the movie up. They just whiffed on the setup TFA made for them, which was the movie's most forgivable quality. That it set up the ability to go somewhere new and interesting with the characters...and this just didn't deliver. It was right there, and elements were in the movie, but they just didn't get explored.
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Old 12-18-2017, 10:53 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by SuperMatt18 View Post
Wouldn't it be the people that dislike the movie having to accept that they dislike what is actually a good movie?

Considering it's at 93% on Rotten Tomatoes, and 86 on metacritic it feels like it's actually the people that dislike the movie that have to accept it's not as bad as they think it is.
It's 56% on Rotten Tomatoes with the actual audience score and not the clearly bought critic scores.
https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/sta..._the_last_jedi

Daddy's Home 2 has a 58% audience score for some perspective.
https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/daddys_home_2
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Old 12-18-2017, 10:58 AM   #249
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What I can't understand is how the Critics score for Attack of the Clones is higher than The Phantom Menace. There's an undeniably worst movie in the franchise, and the critics have it wrong. How can they be trusted again?!
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Old 12-18-2017, 11:00 AM   #250
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Oh yeah because we all know audience scores on RT are like gospel. That's why they are constantly referenced when any movie comes out all over the internet as the defining measure of any movie. Heck, RT fan scores have been talked about and referenced, oh man I'm not even sure let's just say countless times in the dozens upon dozens upon dozens of movie discussions of the years here on CP. Just goes to show how widespread and important those scores are.

They have about as much validity as any internet vote/poll, exactly zero.

At least the critics are probably real people.
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Old 12-18-2017, 11:06 AM   #251
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Oh yeah because we all know audience scores on RT are like gospel.
Are you kidding? Why are you such a dick? You're the one who explicitly asked for the difference between the critic and fan response.

If only there was some site on the internet that splits up the scoring between critics and other audience....
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Old 12-18-2017, 11:11 AM   #252
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Are you kidding? Why are you such a dick? You're the one who explicitly asked for the difference between the critic and fan response.

If only there was some site on the internet that splits up the scoring between critics and other audience....
lol.

No I asked which fans the poster was referencing. If you're gonna say fan reaction is negative, I'd like to know the source since that is an impossible metric to judge. And if that source is gonna be what is essentially a random internet poll then yeah, I'm gonna question it's validity when it is wildly inconsistent with reaction everywhere else.

Not to mention you're the one who made the hilarious comment about critics being bought and you're gonna whine that I'm mean for mocking using unverifiable fan scores from the exact same website?

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Old 12-18-2017, 11:17 AM   #253
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Rogue One purposely teased the Hyperspace Tracking used in The Last Jedi:

https://io9.gizmodo.com/rogue-one-te...ium=socialflow

"Very cool." /Nerd Crew
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Old 12-18-2017, 11:18 AM   #254
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Not to mention you're the one who made the hilarious comment about critics being bought and you're gonna whine that I'm mean for mocking using unverifiable fan scores from the exact same website?
https://www.vox.com/culture/2017/11/...a-ban-blackout

If only Disney wasn't just involved in a controversy where it was banning critics due to "unfair coverage." Kind of gives other some incentive to play nice...

The site had 99% before it got released to the general public and has been going down pretty regular since. If you're naive enough to think the biggest entertainment company isn't going to try and boost its score on a multibillion dollar franchise, I think that's quite hilarious.

The fact that you're trying to act like it's unverifiable fan scores somehow doesn't mean anything though? What? Who cares if they don't have a face for the 150,000 people who voted. What's your argument?

Check Thor: Ragnorak. Even Justice League. The audience score doesn't suggest fans hated those, so why Star Wars...if it wasn't because *gasp* some people just didn't like the movie?!

I thought it was trash. I'm not going to get my panties in a bunch if people liked it. Good for them. But I saw it opening night, saw it when it had 99% audience score and came out of the theatre severely disappointed.

And for what it's worth, I pretty much exclusively use audience score on rotten tomato for newish movies when looking for something to watch. It's pretty accurate.

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Old 12-18-2017, 11:25 AM   #255
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Or maybe RT fan scores are total and complete BS...

Quote:
But are audiences actually disliking The Last Jedi? One problem with Rotten Tomatoes’ audience score, along with IMDB, is there’s no vetting process. People don’t need to prove they’ve seen a movie and can vote multiple times through multiple accounts.

Instead, we should look to the movie’s CinemaScore, an America-based exit poll system that scientifically works out an audience score. Movies are marked between A+ and F, the score often accurately hinting at how much a movie will make at the box-office.

The Force Awakens earned an A score, with 90% of all respondents being positive, the average score being 4.5, while Rogue One earned an A, 91% positive feedback and the same score. By comparison, The Last Jedi also won an A CinemaScore, 89% positive feedback, and a five-out-of-five score.
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-en...-a8116166.html

The idea that coverage of TLJ has been positive due to some disney critic conspiracy is outlandish. Big studio pressure on critics has always existed and is hardly the reason the movie got widespread positive reviews the way it did.
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Old 12-18-2017, 11:28 AM   #256
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Or maybe RT fan scores are total and complete BS...
Why? How can you say an audience's thought on a movie is complete BS?

You yourself thought the movie was just ok. Who cares if someone thought it didn't make it to that level?

Do you have other examples of where RT audience score was so clearly BS, or did someone, for some reason, decide that Star Wars: The Last Jedi was the movie they would screw with? I guess it could be Snoke's doing...would make more sense than the movie.

But the more likely event is, hey some people didn't like the movie so much.
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Old 12-18-2017, 11:30 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen View Post
https://www.vox.com/culture/2017/11/...a-ban-blackout

If only Disney wasn't just involved in a controversy where it was banning critics due to "unfair coverage." Kind of gives other some incentive to play nice...

The site had 99% before it got released to the general public and has been going down pretty regular since. If you're naive enough to think the biggest entertainment company isn't going to try and boost its score on a multibillion dollar franchise, I think that's quite hilarious.

The fact that you're trying to act like it's unverifiable fan scores somehow doesn't mean anything though? What? Who cares if they don't have a face for the 150,000 people who voted. What's your argument?

Check Thor: Ragnorak. Even Justice League. The audience score doesn't suggest fans hated those, so why Star Wars...if it wasn't because *gasp* some people just didn't like the movie?!

I thought it was trash. I'm not going to get my panties in a bunch if people liked it. Good for them. But I saw it opening night, saw it when it had 99% audience score and came out of the theatre severely disappointed.
I think it's a bad movie, but was entertaining enough. The critic scores are the thing I'm most upset about. Many critics made this out to be some well though out and deep movie, which it clearly wasn't. There were comparisons to the Empire Strikes Back. Instead, it was typical Disney fare.

The fact that Meta Critic critics are given the film a perfect 100 and there is not a single bad review is just baffling. The movie is clearly divisive. Even if you like it, I can't see how you could possibly think it was a perfect movie, deserving a perfect rating.
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Old 12-18-2017, 11:33 AM   #258
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Considering it's at 93% on Rotten Tomatoes
That's the critic score not the audience score.

Regardless... here's how I think you fix The Last Jedi (or make it even better):

1: Rey's parent... make them somebody (as opposed to the nobodies). She didn't have to be a Kenobi or Skywalker but she could have been a Bridger or a Jarrus or an Organa.

2: Cut the Casino planet part... just have the Del Toro character be with the resistance from the start (make him a mercenary that was with them at the time of the evac). Extend the scene where they're trying to sneak in and shut down the tracker... when that doesn't work show that Leia had the escape pod as a "Plan B" in her pocket the whole time).

3: Make it 50% less jokey. I want some humor but this was to much

4: Have Luke show up in person for the climax. They showed us the X-Wing he arrived on... show us him raising it. He died (and became one with the force) due to what? the strain of doing a force projection halfway across the galaxy? I buy that... I'd also buy him using the force to deflect the ATAT barrage as the same and then we could have gotten a real lightsaber duel.
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Old 12-18-2017, 11:33 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen View Post
Why? How can you say an audience's thought on a movie is complete BS?

You yourself thought the movie was just ok. Who cares if someone thought it didn't make it to that level?

Do you have other examples of where RT audience score was so clearly BS, or did someone, for some reason, decide that Star Wars: The Last Jedi was the movie they would screw with? I guess it could be Snoke's doing...would make more sense than the movie.

But the more likely event is, hey some people didn't like the movie so much.
The post I responded to claimed that there's a big difference between the critics and fans think about this movie.

That is unprovable and based on trusted metrics, categorically false.

I have no idea why you're equating me saying that statement is wrong with attacking the idea that someone could not enjoy the movie. Heck I only thought it was ok.

Are you just angry that not a lot of people agree with you here? It makes no sense. Why does your hatred of the movie need to be legitimized by making unprovable statements?
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Old 12-18-2017, 11:33 AM   #260
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That's one fan score...

IMDB audience score is 8/10

You also have to remember how rotten tomatoes scores (and imdb for that matter). There is no vetting of reviewers, multiple votes can be made, bots can be used and you don't actually need to see the movie to vote.

Actual live person polling from CinemaScore show a rating of "A'.

It's not a perfect movie. But it's a good one and movie goers seem to be saying the same thing.

I didn't like it as much as Force Awakens or Rogue One, however.

Last edited by ernie; 12-18-2017 at 11:36 AM.
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