Fentanyl crisis in Calgary: Vice documentary

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Thor

I've seen what alcohol can do in far too many friends, family, relatives to have the same feeling about that. But I would not suggest we need a change in laws, I think we have to accept that the risks of substances is that some get hurt, cars and alcohol are huge killers every year worldwide, and we accept that as part of life.

The difference is that seeking help for alcohol-related problems is much easier and socially acceptable, and will not for example land you in court. I know for a fact my friend had tried to quit weed, but stopped trying when reasonable help just wasn't available.

I had a social worker come to me in the hospital saying that "if it was alcohol it would not be such a serious issue, but..." I was pretty much floored. If my kid had consumed an equivalent amount of alcohol, she would very likely have died, and would certainly have done permanent physical damage to organs. It was a bad situation, but out of all the things a child can consume large amounts of, we're extremely lucky it was "just" weed.

But this is not how society in general sees it. Way too many people see drugs simply as this primal evil that no reason can be applied to. I was floored by many of the reactions I ran into. People just have these completely insane reactions to drugs. Just the fact that I know/knew someone who did drugs makes me a bad person in many people's eyes.

If it had been alcohol, my friend would have been offered support groups, not threatened with complete obliteration of his professional life.

And yes, I think the legal aspect of it does affect attitudes, a lot.

I don't know about you, but if someone said alcohol consumption would decrease and marijuana went up I would rather have that than anything else, since alcohol is such a big killer and significant problem to families, society.

I agree. For the record, I support limitations in alcohol advertising.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Actually?

Yup, I think nightclubs and such sell tiny portions of peanuts or pretzels to legally sell drinks.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Itse

The difference is that seeking help for alcohol-related problems is much easier and socially acceptable, and will not for example land you in court. I know for a fact my friend had tried to quit weed, but stopped trying when reasonable help just wasn't available.

I had a social worker come to me in the hospital saying that "if it was alcohol it would not be such a serious issue, but..." I was pretty much floored. If my kid had consumed an equivalent amount of alcohol, she would very likely have died, and would certainly have done permanent physical damage to organs. It was a bad situation, but out of all the things a child can consume large amounts of, we're extremely lucky it was "just" weed.

But this is not how society in general sees it. Way too many people see drugs simply as this primal evil that no reason can be applied to. I was floored by many of the reactions I ran into. People just have these completely insane reactions to drugs. Just the fact that I know/knew someone who did drugs makes me a bad person in many people's eyes.

If it had been alcohol, my friend would have been offered support groups, not threatened with complete obliteration of his professional life.

And yes, I think the legal aspect of it does affect attitudes, a lot.



I agree. For the record, I support limitations in alcohol advertising.

This is such a strawman.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by peter12

This is such a strawman.

That doesn't even make any sense.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Itse

That doesn't even make any sense.

You brought up two vague anecdotes as a stand-in for how seriously society views drug use viz-a-viz alcohol acceptance.

I've known alcohol to destroy careers. Drunks leave jobs fast. They are quickly shunned by families. Everyone knows that an alcoholic spouse is most likely a violent one as well.

Marijuana use is treated as a joke.

[Coach]

Itse, if you don't mind, I'm curious about the circumstances surrounding your daughter's hospitalization. How old is she, and how much did she have? What happened?

I certainly don't disagree that weed can change people and ultimately take over their lives, but I've never heard of someone being hospitalized from the effects.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by peter12

You brought up two vague anecdotes as a stand-in for how seriously society views drug use viz-a-viz alcohol acceptance.

That's not what a strawman is.

A strawman is a mock representation of someone else's opinion created for the purpose of attacking it.

I'm talking of my own experiences, so it's not a mock representation of anything. You could argue it's a "weak man" argument if I was attacking those anecdotal views. But really I'm not. I'm simply explaining my own views and where they come from.

I've known alcohol to destroy careers. Drunks leave jobs fast. They are quickly shunned by families. Everyone knows that an alcoholic spouse is most likely a violent one as well.

Marijuana use is treated as a joke.

Well, then what you're saying is that I'm generalizing needlessly. Which again is not a strawman.

I am of course talking of my experiences here in Finland, but honestly I would not expect it to be that different from Canada.

It's very easy to fool yourself into thinking that marijuana is a joke before you actually run head first into situations when it's suddenly not a joke. Which usually happens when something bad actually happens, or when the law or social workers get interested in you.

The fact that something is a crime makes a big difference for most people.

A quick check pointed out that in Canada, more than half of all drug crimes are cannabis related, and most of those simple possession offenses, mounting up to 100k+ cases per year. That's seems like a lot of work over "jokes".

Also, a statistical fact, alcoholics can keep jobs for years easily. Just like many other addicts.

Btw, interesting how you're comparing "drunks" and "cannabis use", as if those are the equivalents of each other.

[peter12]

That's not what a strawman is.

A strawman is a mock representation of someone else's opinion created for the purpose of attacking it.

I'm talking of my own experiences, so it's not a mock representation of anything. You could argue it's a "weak man" argument if I was attacking those anecdotal views. But really I'm not. I'm simply explaining my own views and where they come from.

Well, not really. You used emotional anecdotes to claim that alcohol is treated with far less severity than soft drugs.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by peter12

Well, not really. You used emotional anecdotes to claim that alcohol is treated with far less severity than soft drugs.

Is it your faith that gives you telepathic powers?

Oh wait, obviously not. If you had telepathic powers, then you would have understood what I was trying to say. Unfortunately now you're just going to have to take my word for it.

Or you know, you could keep attacking a mock representation of my view. What ever floats your goat.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Itse

It's very easy to fool yourself into thinking that marijuana is a joke before you actually run head first into situations when it's suddenly not a joke. Which usually happens when something bad actually happens, or when the law or social workers get interested in you.

I don't think it's very fair to denigrate anyone who believes marijuana isn't serious (or, a "joke") as someone is fooling themselves, or has no concept of consequences.

My dog died years ago because it had a seizure after eating a bunch of marijuana that a friend had left out. I loved that dog. That's a pretty serious consequence and yet I still believe marijuana is "a joke" I guess, if I had to label my thoughts about it.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by peter12

Everyone knows that an alcoholic spouse is most likely a violent one as well.

Uhhh what? Alcohol definitely plays a role in domestic violence but this is a bit of stretch unless you're using a very broad definition of "violent." "Abusive" is probably the more apt term.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I don't think it's very fair to denigrate anyone who believes marijuana isn't serious (or, a "joke") as someone is fooling themselves, or has no concept of consequences.

My dog died years ago because it had a seizure after eating a bunch of marijuana that a friend had left out. I loved that dog. That's a pretty serious consequence and yet I still believe marijuana is "a joke" I guess, if I had to label my thoughts about it.

How much marijuana did he eat? The American Veterinary Medicine Association is suggesting that marijuana could be an effective treatment for several disorders, including epilepsy, in companion animals like dogs:

http://atwork.avma.org/2013/07/15/a-...nary-medicine/

[Itse]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I don't think it's very fair to denigrate anyone who believes marijuana isn't serious (or, a "joke") as someone is fooling themselves, or has no concept of consequences.

I didn't mean to denigrate, sorry if I made you feel that way.

Since people are reading so much into my post, I guess I should elaborate.

Personally I still don't really think marihuana is a terrible drug, at least not relatively speaking. I know my reasons for hating the stuff are personal and mostly irrational.

However, weed being illegal is no joke.

My personal feelings about marihuana don't matter when an overzealous social worker is questioning whether I can be trusted with a child since I knew her godfather smoked weed and I "did nothing about it". That's only a bad joke to me. To her it's serious, and the power was on her side.

As long as you keep everything drug related a crime, the power of the organized society is ultimately always going to be on the side of those who want to punish people for them. It doesn't matter how common those people are, the risk is enough to cause people to hide their use. I guess you could call it a double-standard of sorts.

For example, 12+ percent of Canadians smoke weed at least once every year. How often does anyone ever mention their cannabis use on CP? I've been here for a decade and I would say it's extremely rare. I almost never see anyone talk about being high on Facebook, even though I know for a fact I have plenty of friends who have at some point been casual users. But people talk about their drinking all the time.

(More than I'd like in fact.)

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by blankall

How much marijuana did he eat? The American Veterinary Medicine Association is suggesting that marijuana could be an effective treatment for several disorders, including epilepsy, in companion animals like dogs:



http://atwork.avma.org/2013/07/15/a-...nary-medicine/

A lot. I couldn't tell you an exact amount, but far over and above any amount that would be medically administered to an animal (or a person).

I wouldn't doubt its ability to treat those things with proper dosage, though.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by Itse

I'm talking as someone who's kid was hospitalized because of weed she accidentally ate in a chocolate cake (enough to be quite dangerous), and who has seen a dear friends live almost get destroyed by weed. (And a friendship more or less destroyed. Not unrelated incidents.) Unsurprisingly weed really disgusts me now.



Here's the disconnect for me. I've been observing societys reactions to weed from very close in the last couple of years, and I haven't seen any reactions that I felt served a real purpose. Nothing that would have prevented what happened, and nothing that would prevent it from happening in the future. Nothing that helped anyone, beyond the immediate hospital care of my child. (Which was fantastic and I'm so grateful for the professionalism of the hospital staff and the quality of care that I can't even put it to words.)

In short, my first hand experiences support the rather convincing statistical claims that the current drug policies are just not working. There needs to be a fundamental change in thinking for any actual movement forward.

While decriminalization is I think the right way forward, even more important would be that we stop approaching drugs as primarily a crime issue.

Drug policies should primarily be up to the Department of Health (or equivalent in each country), not the Justice Department.

Not sure how weed got into the mix in this Fentanyl discussion, but I really feel the need to chime in here.

Firstly, while unfortunate this happened to your daughter, I'd like to point out that she was not 'hospitalized' because of weed. You being the good father I'm sure you are decided to take your daughter to the hospital because your daughter was freaking out on weed (by the way anyone who's first experience with weed is with edibles is going to have a bad day). It's not like she would have suffered any permanent damage if you hadn't taken her to the hospital.

That said, I can definitely see why you have the opinion on weed that you do. It comes down to personal experiences, but you have to weigh the bad with the good. While you may see weed as harmful to your daughter, there are plenty of other parents who consider it a cure for theirs.

Also, decriminalization isn't the right way to do it. It doesn't address all of the issues and provides less benefits than legalization.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

A lot. I couldn't tell you an exact amount, but far over and above any amount that would be medically administered to an animal (or a person).

I wouldn't doubt its ability to treat those things with proper dosage, though.

Can't eat chocolate or weed. Dogs sure have it ruff.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon In Flames

Can't eat chocolate or weed. Dogs sure have it ruff.

Offset by the ability to lick their balls.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Offset by the ability to lick their balls.

When we let them keep them...

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Itse

For example, 12+ percent of Canadians smoke weed at least once every year. How often does anyone ever mention their cannabis use on CP? I've been here for a decade and I would say it's extremely rare. I almost never see anyone talk about being high on Facebook, even though I know for a fact I have plenty of friends who have at some point been casual users. But people talk about their drinking all the time.

(More than I'd like in fact.)

Outside of pretty obvious drug threads, you're right, we never bring it up. Why would we?

People talk about alcohol, however, like it's the stripper they took home from the club. It's really irritating.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Offset by the ability to lick their balls.

I've never tried to smell my balls, but supporting evidence suggests that I would never want to lick them.