[PGT] Where is the defense? Flames lose to Avs 6-3

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by mdubz

Probably when you said we're "stuck with" a D core consisting of Gio, Brodie and Hamilton.

Are you enthusiastic about paying Giordano 6.8 million for 5seasons after this?

[scotty2hotty]

Originally Posted by polak

I'd love to hear why I'm out to lunch?

Nothing personal. I just disagree.

All 3 have outstanding resumes and I think it's way too early to judge their signings as a mistake.

[mdubz]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Are you enthusiastic about paying Giordano 6.8 million for 5seasons after this?

It's been a dozen games for a guy who missed a big chunk of last season. Relax.

[Inferno]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Ramo and hiller both have had game saving, highlight reel saves this year. Ramo on sedin and hiller on mcjesus come to mind off the top of my head.

How on earth can 3 different goalies with 3 different styles at 3 different ages have basically the same stat line? It boggles the mind.

And how many have they made lately? I can't think of one that sticks out. Yes, Hiller made that big save on McDavid but the game was already out of reach. The last big save I can think of that was significant was when Hiller stopped one of the Sedins in OT Thanksgiving weekend.

They don't need to make big saves once and a while. Like I said, they don't need to constantly bail out the team but they need to make big saves on a game to game basis. Other goalies around the league do.

[polak]

Originally Posted by scotty2hotty

Nothing personal. I just disagree.

All 3 have outstanding resumes and I think it's way too early to judge their signings as a mistake.

Well that's why I said its starting to look like it. I'm mainly concerned about Gio. He had 1 season worth of games played at the level we paid him for and now it's nowhere to be found. Not trying to act like I wasn't fooled either but that's a very scary prospect if this is how he's going to play going forward.

No GM is going to take a risk on that now.

I think Hamilton will find his grove and be a solid second pairing guy so I can live with that, but despite that, I don't think any GM pays a fair price for him with his play so far.

Brodie is a stud.

Either way. I stand by my post. Hartley has to go.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Are you enthusiastic about paying Giordano 6.8 million for 5seasons after this?

Up until 2020, our best defenseman + our number two or maybe future number three defenseman, are making a combined 11.4 Million. That is perfectly fine until that year.

In 2020 Brodie is up for a contract extension with two years remaining on Giordano's deal. However that is exactly when the NMC on Gio's deal expires so he will be an asset we can eat some minor salary on to get Brodie re-signed, or he can continue to be a #2 defenseman and in the year 2021 that will likely be #2 defenseman money anyways.

[Fan in Exile]

I think that those of you who think the only or primary problem is goaltending are being naïve. We are not last year's Wild. We have by far the worst goal differential in the league. Goaltending could certainly stand to improve but we are not playing well in ANY area. Our systems are not working. Players with proven histories are underperforming. This ultimately falls on the head coach. Not the first time a Hartley team has come out of the gates absolutely awful after looking good or great the year before if you look at his NHL history. I don't think that a coaching change will necessarily turn us around overnight either but this sure looks like a team that needs a fresh start with a new coach.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by troutman

These three goalies were more than adequate last year. They didn't suddenly forget how to play.

Most of the problem has to do with how the team is paying in front of them.

Goalies are weird. Confidence is a huge thing for them. A great goalie can suddenly catch fire or vice versa, year to year.

This is on the team yes, but moreso on the goalies.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by scotty2hotty

Nothing personal. I just disagree.

All 3 have outstanding resumes and I think it's way too early to judge their signings as a mistake.

This. This many good players all underperforming strikes me as there being a problem that goes beyond their individual abilities and it is more of a team deficiency in places we can't peg down. I have no doubt that, if any of these three players were on a high-performing team right now, their individual statistics would improve and their worth would be apparent.

This is really looking more and more like an un-synchronized and/or demotivated team which is more than a sum of any of the individual player parts.

[JJ1532]

Originally Posted by polak

I'd love to hear why I'm out to lunch?

Because Hartley has gone from being the best coach in the league last year to being sackable 13 games into the following season. You say last year was a fluke? But what happens if the players are actually the problem, not him? What happens if they produced fluke performances and the bump back to earth is something he can't control?

We all knew the issues with Russell and Wideman didn't we? We all knew Wideman had serious defensive issues in Boston/Washington, so why are his performances this season a surprise? Russell allows too many shots say the advanced stats guys. So is his defensive issues a surprise? As for Gio, I think the criticism of him is almost as bad as the criticism of Hamilton. Gio was worth every penny of his contract in the summer, but 13 sketchy games into this season and he now looks like a terrible signing which will weigh us down. After the way he's played and led this team over the last 18 months, he deserves every ounce of patience from the management and fans to sort himself out, which I have no doubt he will. That again is something Hartley can't control, nor the injuries to the likes of Bouma and Ferland, plus Brodie missing time, plus the 3 headed goalie monster. These are all things Hartley can't be blamed for, all issues which have led to this poor start.

Look at our forward roster though: Jones, Backlund, Raymond, Bollig, Stajan. Man there are a lot of underperforming forwards on this team. None of those players I'm convinced are long term options for us. Maybe Hartley worked miracles on a pretty poor group overall last season, but simply can't repeat the feat this time around. That doesn't mean he is a poor coach and should be fired. That simply means the roster seriously needs upgrading, especially the bottom 6 and goaltenders.

Talking of goalies, if the issues are entirely on the goaltenders(or at least mostly), what is Hartley supposed to do? They aren't his area. That's Sigalet's. Why should the head coach be fired because his goalies are letting him down game after game?

You are totally out to lunch and making rash long term decisions after a short term bad start. Why are we in win now mode? This roster isn't a contenders roster. Hell, it should never have been a play off roster. One excellent season last year(fluke or not) doesn't change that. I think you need to chill out and show some patience. This team needs some serious work and that is only going to happen in the long term. There are no short term fixes for this, not unless Treliving pulls off a Dubynk-esq trade out of nowhere. Need to stay the course and see where we are come the deadline. Firing Hartley will solve nothing in my opinion.

[polak]

K tell me this. What exactly is Hartley doing to be earning his paycheck right now?

What is this team doing that makes you believe he's doing anything effective or is good at his job in any way? Our inconsistent offense? Our downright awful D? Our complete lack of discipline? Our lack of a powerplay? Our lack of a PK? Our missing work ethic? What??

I don't disagree that it's mostly on the players but we're not going to trade 20 players. This team is showing no signs of improvement. It doesn't matter if we're in a rebuild or not if the team is getting worse as it goes along.

[Benched]

Originally Posted by JJ1532

Then we have some decent prospects in the likes of Poirer, Klimchuk, Andersson, Kylington, McDonald, Gillies. Trust the process I say. I am not worried about us long term.

+Austin Matthews

[Fan in Exile]

For every tale of a Dubnyk or Kiprusoff coming in and turning a team's season around, there are ten examples of coaches coming in and turning a team's season around. I cannot fathom a goalie coming in and turning this team around. The problems go far far deeper than that. It's not one or two players or one facet of the game. It's a team that is no longer responding to the coach and/or whose systems and strategies are being effectively countered by the teams they play on a nightly basis.

Coaches of the year losing their teams the next year? Too numerous to count. Why does anyone imagine this situation is any different?

[iamca]

Well I was at the game last night in great seats (the Can was less than 3/4 full, maybe 14K in attendance). Didn't sleep well at all and I had too many Upslope IPA's.

My thoughts from the lower bowl:
Poor rebound control, short side coverage, and being caught out of position too many times
Team overall had the effort until the inevitable horrendous PP that gave up a shorty
Jooris lacking confidence, should have scored on the 2-1 if he shot instead looked pass the entire time
Johnny continues to impress, dangerous pretty much every shift
Monahan lacking confidence as well, not really an impact that he needs to be (does not have the jump he had last season so far)
Missing Ferly and Bouma as there was not a lot of actual hits (Colborne attempted to throw more hits than any other forward)
Bennett should have had a hat trick, the first goal was going in the net no matter what and frustrating as the net coming off the pegs was almost simultaneous
2nd Bennett goal, there was no whistle (believe me it was quiet and no whistle was blown)
The defense is a puzzler, made some good passes, but was not physical enough.
Have become a pretty easy team to play against (lack of a hard forecheck and playing physical when appropriate)
Brodie played great and really makes whomever he plays with better (skating, passing, beauty backhand cross-ice tape to tape pass, head on a swivel on the D side)

Besides the poor goaltending and team defense, too many passengers out there posing as hockey players.

If you are the coaching staff getting better goaltending is a must, but you can't sit half the team for being passengers or not playing with confidence.

BTW, lots of Flames fans in attendance again, which is always nice to see. Favorite fans were the 2 folks in matching red Flames hats and their Flames Mexican blanket ponchos...where do you buy those?

[adc]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

But we need more second line 20 goal scorers! We need to score 5 goals to even have a chance of winning with how horrible the defensive side has been. And a lot of it has to do with the forwards defensive game.

Isn't possible we need both?

[N-E-B]

Nothing about last year was a fluke. NOTHING. That was a different team, and they had "it". This year they don't, but I can't stand when people suggest last year was a fluke. They earned that. It was no fluke.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Are you enthusiastic about paying Giordano 6.8 million for 5seasons after this?

The 5 years kind of scare me, but I'm not actually as worried as some might be. Its a bit scary now, but you can't really judge a player when the whole defense (minus Brodie) looks like crap.

Except maybe Engelland too lol

To me, it again show that Brodie was our best D last year, nothing against Gio.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by adc

Isn't possible we need both?

Humans need both food and water to survive. They are both needs.

One is significantly more important than the other.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by N-E-B

Nothing about last year was a fluke. NOTHING. That was a different team, and they had "it". This year they don't, but I can't stand when people suggest last year was a fluke. They earned that. It was no fluke.

Which is why this start is so frustrating & confusing.

[saillias]

Originally Posted by polak

I don't disagree that it's mostly on the players but we're not going to trade 20 players. This team is showing no signs of improvement. It doesn't matter if we're in a rebuild or not if the team is getting worse as it goes along.

My thoughts as well.

Rebuild or not getting blown out every night is going to lead to a coaching change sooner than later

The cynical answer to why fire Hartley is this: It's a hell of a lot easier to fire and replace one man than try to trade 6-8 underperforming players.