Friedman: Flames a good fit for Kessel?

[kehatch]

The amount of misinformation on this player is crazy. Someone go find the myth busters because many of you need a reeducation.

Regarding fitness: He is never injured. I have seen no sign of fitness issues on the ice. He scores very well in fitness training.

Regarding value: The bar was set with the Nash and Ryan trades. Your not talking Bennett. Your not talking garbage. Your talking about something like a first, Backlund, Poirier, and Wotherspoon.

Regarding contract: There is nothing wrong with 8-million for a player of this age and caliber.

Regarding attitude: I haven't seen a coach, GM, or team mate say anything bad about the players attitude.

He wouldn't just make us better, he would make us MUCH better for the next 5 years.

Personally, I don't think we are far enough along in the rebuild to justify thus type of move. But some of the comments on here are completely uninformed.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by kehatch

Personally, I don't think we are far enough along in the rebuild to justify thus type of move. But some of the comments on here are completely uninformed.

Because you say so? Ok.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by kehatch

IMO The amount of misinformation on this player is crazy. Someone go find the myth busters because many of you need a reeducation.

I put that in for accuracy as you are clearly one of those fans that believes statistics are the most important part of accessing a player's value. Also no we don't need to be re-educated. Most of us have followed his career closely seeing he's been a Leaf which means we have endured more articles and stories on him than most Flames over the years.

Originally Posted by kehatch

Regarding fitness: He is never injured. I have seen no sign of fitness issues on the ice. He scores very well in fitness training.

He's the Nik Lewis of hockey. Fat but gifted. Problem being Nick Lewis career is effectively over in his early 30's because father time is hard on people that don't take care of their body and Phil has an $8 million cap hit until he's 34 years old. He won't be nearly the player he is today in five years if he doesn't start taking care if his body. The jury is out if he can change or if he's just another Dustin Penner who's never going to be able to get in proper shape.

Originally Posted by kehatch

Regarding value: The bar was set with the Nash and Ryan trades. Your not talking Bennett. Your not talking garbage. Your talking about something like a first, Backlund, Poirier, and Wotherspoon.

Likely for the team desperate enough to bite. Leafs won't get a homerun return simply because of the contract.

Originally Posted by kehatch

Regarding contract: There is nothing wrong with 8-million for a player of this age and caliber.

Well that all depends if you are fan of a strictly one-dimensional player with no leadership skills taking up a big chunk of your salary cap. I'm not and I imagine a lot of GM's also aren't.

Originally Posted by kehatch

Regarding attitude: I haven't seen a coach, GM, or team mate say anything bad about the players attitude.

Carlyle was a pro in regards to not throwing anyone under the bus but he's biting his lip clearly in regards to the player and he also acknowledged that Kessel didn't get treated like other players and preferential treatment is classic loser team management hence the Leafs and Oilers.

Originally Posted by kehatch

He wouldn't just make us better, he would make us MUCH better for the next 5 years.

Lets not forget that the Flames were missing the playoffs with Iginla who was scoring at clips as good or better than Kessel. Flames success last year wasn't because of a single player but because of the team play. The Flames were top 10 in scoring last season and while Kessel would likely contribute offensively lets not pretend that he and Hartley would ever be on the same page. Sven didn't get the 'special' treatment and nor would Phil and it remains to be seen how many goals and points Kessel could accumulate if he was forced to play a structured game.

Originally Posted by kehatch

Personally, I don't think we are far enough along in the rebuild to justify thus type of move. But some of the comments on here are completely uninformed.

No we aren't but I don't think you drop a Phil Kessel into a team that is trying to establish a culture of hard work and team play. He's more the complementary player for a team that feels it's one player away from winning a cup.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by kehatch

The amount of misinformation on this player is crazy. Someone go find the myth busters because many of you need a reeducation.

Regarding fitness: He is never injured. I have seen no sign of fitness issues on the ice. He scores very well in fitness training.

Regarding value: The bar was set with the Nash and Ryan trades. Your not talking Bennett. Your not talking garbage. Your talking about something like a first, Backlund, Poirier, and Wotherspoon.

Regarding contract: There is nothing wrong with 8-million for a player of this age and caliber.

Regarding attitude: I haven't seen a coach, GM, or team mate say anything bad about the players attitude.

He wouldn't just make us better, he would make us MUCH better for the next 5 years.

Personally, I don't think we are far enough along in the rebuild to justify thus type of move. But some of the comments on here are completely uninformed.

agreed. If the flames were to make a pitch for Kessel, I would think a package similar to what Boomer suggested on the radio this morning would certainly have to be considered from the Leafs perspective (Backlund, Gillies, and a 1st).

From a Flames stand point, this depends on what they see coming from Ortio. Can we give up our 1st/2nd best goaltending prospect? I think the loss of a backlund would hurt the flames, but perhaps this opens the door for Arnold. To get something you have to give up something. The 1st is a no brainer from the leafs perspective. this deal doesn't happen without it.

Kessel fills an immediate need in that he adds an elite RW to the line up. Aside from depth on the blue line, this is the biggest hole in the organization. I put little stock in any dressing room rumors you regularly read in places such as CP, or other forums. The same guys who are popping off here about 'cheese burger Phil' are also the same guys who will be talking about how awesome phil is when he has 30 through 60 games and leading the flames in goal scoring (which he would) next year if he's wearing flames silks.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I put that in for accuracy as you are clearly one of those fans that believes statistics are the most important part of accessing a player's value. Also no we don't need to be re-educated. Most of us have followed his career closely seeing he's been a Leaf which means we have endured more articles and stories on him than most Flames over the years.



He's the Nik Lewis of hockey. Fat but gifted. Problem being Nick Lewis career is effectively over in his early 30's because father time is hard on people that don't take care of their body and Phil has an $8 million cap hit until he's 34 years old. He won't be nearly the player he is today in five years if he doesn't start taking care if his body. The jury is out if he can change or if he's just another Dustin Penner who's never going to be able to get in proper shape.



Likely for the team desperate enough to bite. Leafs won't get a homerun return simply because of the contract.



Well that all depends if you are fan of a strictly one-dimensional player with no leadership skills taking up a big chunk of your salary cap. I'm not and I imagine a lot of GM's also aren't.



Carlyle was a pro in regards to not throwing anyone under the bus but he's biting his lip clearly in regards to the player and he also acknowledged that Kessel didn't get treated like other players and preferential treatment is classic loser team management hence the Leafs and Oilers.



Lets not forget that the Flames were missing the playoffs with Iginla who was scoring at clips as good or better than Kessel. Flames success last year wasn't because of a single player but because of the team play. The Flames were top 10 in scoring last season and while Kessel would likely contribute offensively lets not pretend that he and Hartley would ever be on the same page. Sven didn't get the 'special' treatment and nor would Phil and it remains to be seen how many goals and points Kessel could accumulate if he was forced to play a structured game.



No we aren't but I don't think you drop a Phil Kessel into a team that is trying to establish a culture of hard work and team play. He's more the complementary player for a team that feels it's one player away from winning a cup.

how do you know all this stuff about a players physical conditioning and his leadership qualities? Reading forums? the Toronto Sun?

I'm always amazed by just how knowledgeable you seem to be about these matters.

[Dajazz]

Good player, horrible fit.

We're not in cap jail, yet, or ever hopefully. However, at some point in time Gaudreau, Bennett, Monahan et. al will get their raises and thats in 2-4 years time. Meanwhile, Giordano got his massive retirement deal, Brodie's new contract has kicked in etc etc. Kessel's contract is a cap killer in three years time, he adds nothing but scoring, of which this teams has plenty. We need physicality and puck possession. He adds neither.

Having said that, he's not a bum, the guys scores at will and is a top 10 scoring machine.

[Vinny01]

I think it was touched on earlier in the thread but this trade should be similar to the one the Ducks made with Ryan. Bobby Ryan was a 26 year old 4 time 30 goal scorer with 2 years at $5M per left on his deal. The Ducks traded him to a Sens team that was very similar to this current Flames group for Silferburg a 22 year old that had 19 points the year he was traded, Noeson a 21st overall pick and a future 1st.

Assuming Kessels value is the same (no reason to think it is really any higher) the equivalent offer from the Flames would be Granlund, Jankowski, and 2016 1st.

Not a deal Treliving would/should make but that is a good ballpark on the value of comparing Kessel to Ryan which is a fair comparison. The Sens ended up giving Ryan and equally bad contract as Kessel and he has been sub par in Ottawa so far scoring in that 25 goal 50 point range which is awful for $7M. Kessel had 25 goals and 61pts last year and the risk in trading for him is real as there is no guarantee he will get back to being a 80pt player again

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by TOfan

how do you know all this stuff about a players physical conditioning and his leadership qualities? Reading forums? the Toronto Sun?

I'm always amazed by just how knowledgeable you seem to be about these matters.

Didn't Kesse make a comment last summer he didn't skate until August and fished/golfed all summer?

[Azhouse]

Originally Posted by kehatch

The amount of misinformation on this player is crazy. Someone go find the myth busters because many of you need a reeducation.

Regarding fitness: He is never injured. I have seen no sign of fitness issues on the ice. He scores very well in fitness training.

Regarding value: The bar was set with the Nash and Ryan trades. Your not talking Bennett. Your not talking garbage. Your talking about something like a first, Backlund, Poirier, and Wotherspoon.

Regarding contract: There is nothing wrong with 8-million for a player of this age and caliber.

Regarding attitude: I haven't seen a coach, GM, or team mate say anything bad about the players attitude.

He wouldn't just make us better, he would make us MUCH better for the next 5 years.

Personally, I don't think we are far enough along in the rebuild to justify thus type of move. But some of the comments on here are completely uninformed.

Still do not want.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Didn't Kesse make a comment last summer he didn't skate until August and fished/golfed all summer?

don't think Phil might be baiting the media there?

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Didn't Kesse make a comment last summer he didn't skate until August and fished/golfed all summer?

Yep...and then the rumour was he finished third in fitness testing.

Originally Posted by kehatch

Regarding attitude: I haven't seen a coach, GM, or team mate say anything bad about the players attitude.

Ron Wilson was critical of him, insinuating he along with the Leafs core were coach killers. Of course that's Ron Wilson passing blame then. Steve Spott also said that Kessel didn't like coaches and sometimes argued with them.

Jack Johnson called Kessel a dirtbag. There's always been anonymous sources stating teammates don't like him. But for everyone of those there's someone who sticks up for him.
http://www.thehockeynews.com/blog/is...pporting-cast/

Contrast that with the words of Joe Colborne of the Calgary Flames, who played with Kessel as a frequent call-up to the Leafs before his trade to Calgary. “He’s such a great guy and such a good teammate, and the guys love him so much,” Colborne says. “He might come off as a guy who doesn’t care or isn’t a good teammate, but behind closed doors in the dressing room, he’s so loved. The guys love him. I feel badly for him because he’s a much better person than he’s being portrayed.”

[Igottago]

I take everything that comes out of Toronto with a massive grain of salt, which means Kessel is probably not fat, unfit, a bad teammate, or a bad leader. I think he's a really good player and clearly one of the best goal scorers in the game. Who wouldn't want that on their team?

The obvious downside is the contract. The Flames shouldn't be jeopardizing the future of the team on a huge long term contract that could be a hindrance in signing the future core at some point.

But strictly from a hockey perspective, Kessel would be a great addition to the team. I never buy into the media circus in TO.

[Calgary4LIfe]

This move is a move that would be 'Sutter-like' in Darry's last couple of years here. I say that with full respect to Darryl.

When Darryl decided to stop being a head coach, his finger slid of the team every year. He seemingly made strong trade/signing after strong trade/signing. It was like he just couldn't miss.

However, the longer he was upstairs, then suddenly the moves just weren't working to make the team better, even though on paper, they should have. This team went from becoming a decent skating club that was very physical and hard-working, to an above average-top third skilled team with no heart. Sutter completely lost the team identity, and therefore the chemistry.

Would Kessel instantly make the Flames more dangerous? Yep, sure would.
Would Kessel fill an organizationally need? Yep, for sure.
Would Kessel make the club more talented? Yep, no question.
Would Kessel fit into the team identity? No.
Would Kessel fit into the locker room? No idea - and no one else really does either, including the TO fans sticking up for him.

Personally after the team F-upped the 'thank the fans' at the end of games things, you really do and SHOULD question Kessel's ability to lead. You really should question that leadership again as he is one of the leaders on that team, and somehow the Leafs were way worse than the sum of their parts.

At any rate, Kessel doesn't fit-in with the identity of the Flames. You just don't bring a player in if he doesn't fit the team. I don't care how cheap or expensive he would be, a player that doesn't fit the team is a likely disruption for whatever the reasons - personal or otherwise.

[Caged Great]

The main thing to consider is the insane amount of forward depth that the Flames have at the upper end of the prospect pool and the fact we have 6 picks in the top 90 in a couple weeks. There simply won't be enough room for everyone to play in the NHL in Calgary. The Flames only have 12 forward roster spots and about 20 forwards that are of a quality that they should be able to play at least some role at the NHL level in the near future. It is both a positive, but also a difficult thing as they will have to make trades involving some of them.

We have Monahan, Bennett, Colborne, Jooris, Bouma, Granlund, Jankowski, Arnold, and Reinhart up the middle. We have Gaudreau, Ferland, Klimchuk, and Agostino on the left side and Shore, Poirier, Smith, Carroll, Hathaway, and Harrison on the right side. That is a huge list of names and most if not all could play in the NHL some day.

The Flames could quite easily deal 3 or 4 quality prospects and still have a deep forward pool. Now, if Kessel is a good fit is yet to be determined, but the Flames should be in the mode now where if a very good player comes available that is under the age of 30, they should be kicking the tires much like the Kings when they acquired both Richards and Carter.

The Kings gave up B Schenn, Simmons + 2nd round pick in 2012 for Richards
They gave up Jack Johnson + 1st for Carter

Calgary could realistically match those proposals with say Poirier + Klimchuk + Granlund for Kessel. Would that impact our prospects pool significantly? yes, but not by a huge amount. We would easily be able to replace those assets with other guys in this draft. If the Flames drafted forwards with 3 of the picks in the top 2 rounds, they would be able to match the talent levels of those three players (yes, it is that nuts).

[JiriHrdina]

I think you are being overly optimistic. I bet, at best, half those kids make it to the Nhl for more than a cup of coffee

[KootenayFlamesFan]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

We have Monahan, Bennett, Colborne, Jooris, Bouma, Granlund, Jankowski, Arnold, and Reinhart up the middle. We have Gaudreau, Ferland, Klimchuk, and Agostino on the left side and Shore, Poirier, Smith, Carroll, Hathaway, and Harrison on the right side. That is a huge list of names and most if not all could play in the NHL some day.

There are a LOT of question marks there. We simply have no idea what we have with a lot of the players you listed.

The Flames need to stay on the path of drafting and developing as many good players as they can. Then 2, 3, 4 years down the road when they are potentially a serious contender that would be the time to ship out prospects for immediate help. Not now.

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

I think you are being overly optimistic. I bet, at best, half those kids make it to the Nhl for more than a cup of coffee

13/19 already have played in the NHL, and at least 7 should be longer term NHLers as it sits now with some question marks on the other 6. (Mono, Bennett, Gaudreau, Colborne, Bouma, Granlund and Shore are the 7 with questions on Jooris, Arnold, Reinhart, Ferland, Agostino and Poirier)

The only ones not to play in the NHL are Klimchuk, Jankowski (both very likely even if for a cup of coffee), Smith, Carroll, Hathaway and Harrison. I could see all of them make it at least to the NHL, although not all for us.

There is also a difference between making the NHL and becoming an impact player. That's why I'm not opposed to trading some maybe's for a more sure thing. I don't even like Kessel, but he would be amazing on this team and plays on the right side which is the only area of weakness organizationally.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

Would Kessel fit into the team identity? No.

Mmm, I don't know. He's certainly not likely going down to block every shot that comes his way like Russell, the rest of the defence and Bouma. But neither were Hudler, Raymond, or Gaudreau. Buying into the system, playing as a team for one another. Yeah, those might be part of the identity and maybe or maybe not Kessel would be down for it.

However, I would say the biggest shift in team identity has been speed. Kessel's fast.

This is a team with management that was willing to risk giving Raymond a 10M contract because of his speed. They've preached a high importance on skating for over a year now. I don't think we can definitely say that one of the fastest skaters in the league doesn't fit the team identity.

[ForeverFlameFan]

The negatives outweigh the positives. I honestly don't mind Kessel over here as long as it doesn't break the bank.

[GioforPM]

http://www.thestar.com/sports/leafs/...k_feschuk.html

Fitness and coach's criticism in one handy package.

It's a double-edged sword though - if Kessel is indeed fit, then he sure is lazy on the ice.