[News] Flames scratch Sven...again

[Yamer]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Yep. I admit that I've never been as bullish on Sven as some fans here have but I think he can be a top 6 NHL forward. I believe the Oilers approach of letting the kids play with no accountability is why their top players have had their growth stunted so I'm okay with Sven being held accountable.

However I do have a little gripe which is less about Sven and more about how Hartley seems to have tiered expectations for certain players like Baertschi, Horak, Smith, Backlund, Jones, etc. Horak under Brent in his first season played 61 games and didn't look out of place most nights. In two seasons under Hartley he can't even get in the lineup. Meanwhile guys like Galiardi who IMO has been just going through the motions never lose their role and Jackman to me is no longer a full time NHL player. Heck even Jones has been ho hum. Just seems to me that some players seem to escape his wrath while others can do no right. Maybe I am reading too much into this but I don't want to waste these rebuilding years with no accountability for players that aren't part of the long term plans. I would like to see some of these other guys take their turn in the pressbox for poor play like Galiardi last night with that poor giveaway and poor overall play.

I can agree with your assessment of Jones and Jackman, but I have to disagree about Galiardi. Yes, he has had some bonehead moments and lapses in judgement, but overall I have really liked what he has brought to the club. Lots of energy and hustle, and really seems to know and play to the strengths of his role.

It would be nice to see some of these other players held accountable. Reduction in minutes, no special teams time, maybe a seat in the pressbox now and again. However, with Sven (and as others have brought up), there is far more of an investment factor there. I'm not sure if there are players that can "do no right". I feel it's more a matter of nipping it in the bud. Get these bad habits out, reinforce the future attitude of the team identity in the players that will be here and will be part of the future plan. Sven's one of those guys. I love to see that, while they are having him sit, they seem to be giving him way more attention and instruction than some of the other guys.

They know that he has something special in him that has the potential to translate into something spectacular at this level, and they are taking every necessary step to ensure he realizes this potential.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

...However I do have a little gripe which is less about Sven and more about how Hartley seems to have tiered expectations for certain players like Baertschi, Horak, Smith, Backlund, Jones, etc. Horak under Brent in his first season played 61 games and didn't look out of place most nights. In two seasons under Hartley he can't even get in the lineup. Meanwhile guys like Galiardi who IMO has been just going through the motions never lose their role and Jackman to me is no longer a full time NHL player. Heck even Jones has been ho hum. Just seems to me that some players seem to escape his wrath while others can do no right. Maybe I am reading too much into this but I don't want to waste these rebuilding years with no accountability for players that aren't part of the long term plans. I would like to see some of these other guys take their turn in the pressbox for poor play like Galiardi last night with that poor giveaway and poor overall play.

I understand the concern, and god knows the optics of the situation are not great. However, I also think that the facts that we only see a fraction of what the coaching staff sees, have no input nor insight on what is happening behind closed doors in the dressing room, and also have virtually no experience with coaching professional hockey players, all contribute significantly to our inability to properly understand what's going on. I've mentioned it before in other threads, but there are a couple of other key factors at play here: First, our perception of the purpose behind scratching healthy players is probably not accurate, or at minimum, horribly simplistic. Second, it is also likely naïve and inaccurate to assume that all players will be—or even should be—treated identically.

In the end, I suspect that the decisions being made are at minimum the right ones, but most certainly better than the choices that I or any one else on this board would offer alternatively.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I understand the concern, and god knows the optics of the situation are not great. However, I also think that the facts that we only see a fraction of what the coaching staff sees, have no input nor insight on what is happening behind closed doors in the dressing room, and also have virtually no experience with coaching professional hockey players, all contribute significantly to our inability to properly understand what's going on. I've mentioned it before in other threads, but there are a couple of other key factors at play here: First, our perception of the purpose behind scratching healthy players is probably not accurate, or at minimum, horribly simplistic. Second, it is also likely naïve and inaccurate to assume that all players will be—or even should be—treated identically.

In the end, I suspect that the decisions being made are at minimum the right ones, but most certainly better than the choices that I or any one else on this board would offer alternatively.

Agreed and there's always more to things than what we see on the outside which is why I'm not going to get overly upset with what has transpired. I will however keep a keen eye on things as the season progresses to see how things trend out and at the end of the season deduce if the end justified the means. I'm fine with the process but I expect eventual positive results to feel that the team is progressing towards a hopeful turnaround.

[flamesfever]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

How should they be handling Sven then?

Do you want them to just hand him ice time and not worry about trying to fix the deficiencies in his game?

Send him to the AHL where he showed he is probably too good of a talent for last year?

Do you play him with better players? (Is ice time with Hudler and Monahan not good enough for Sven?)

They are trying to build a team of well rounded players that compete all over the ice. Not sure why benching Sven once every 7 games is a crime.

The one complaint I would have is that they are not giving Sven enough PP time. Hopefully that will change now with Glencross and Stempniak injured.

Obviously, there are a sufficient number of fans that are concerned with how Sven is being treated, especially in relationship to others on the team, or this thread would not be as long. For me the benching is not the problem, it's this coupled with Burke's calling him out in the press, after just an extremely short time on the job. To me, this is not the way to treat young players starting out. You don't knock them down, and then attempt to build them up after. Sometimes a certain amount of swagger can help a player e.g. our dear Leaf's captain.

If it were me, I'd keep him on the line with Monahan and Hudler, give him sufficient ice time (at least as much as Monahan) over and extended period of time. And as you say, put him on the pp.

Only time will tell if many of the fans are right, in that he is being mishandled. I think the worst scenario would be to trade him to another team, and let it come back to haunt us.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Yamer

I can agree with your assessment of Jones and Jackman, but I have to disagree about Galiardi. Yes, he has had some bonehead moments and lapses in judgement, but overall I have really liked what he has brought to the club. Lots of energy and hustle, and really seems to know and play to the strengths of his role.

Everyone sees things different from their perspective but I'm just not seeing much from Galiardi. Yeah there is hustle at times but IMO it's in a similar manner to Comeau where he skates hard but doesn't get a lot done. Plays die on his stick. He get's more ice time than Sven in a top 6 role and has produced slightly less. There's a reason this guy has bounced around as he's an energy player that doesn't produce in a top 6 role and these guys are common in free agency. IMO he should be a 3rd line player.

[Zevo]

B. Sutter treats all players the same way...what an idiot and a terrible coach, trying to fit a square peg in a round hole!

B. Hartley uses different methods with different players...what an idiot and terrible coach, all players should be treated the same!

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Zevo

B. Sutter treats all players the same way...what an idiot and a terrible coach, trying to fit a square peg in a round hole!

B. Hartley uses different methods with different players...what an idiot and terrible coach, all players should be treated the same!

It's funny because it's true.

For the record, I agree with Hartley's approach. I am not sure how he is as a motivator or an x'/o's guy, but I like his mindset.

[Zevo]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

It's funny because it's true.

For the record, I agree with Hartley's approach. I am not sure how he is as a motivator or an x'/o's guy, but I like his mindset.

He seems like a great motivator with the way the players have bought in, but ya, not sure about the x's and o's either. So far I like him, he has them playing hard at least.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Everyone sees things different from their perspective but I'm just not seeing much from Galiardi. Yeah there is hustle at times but IMO it's in a similar manner to Comeau where he skates hard but doesn't get a lot done. Plays die on his stick. He get's more ice time than Sven in a top 6 role and has produced slightly less. There's a reason this guy has bounced around as he's an energy player that doesn't produce in a top 6 role and these guys are common in free agency. IMO he should be a 3rd line player.

He was top-6 in San Jose last year. He was top 6 on the Colorado team that made the playoffs in 2009-10.

Baertschi is actually playing on the Flames #1 line with the Flames best forwards. His linemates have 27 points in 30 games.

[strombad]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Clearly I wasn't being facetious with this statement at all. Nope.

I didn't post in this thread until people started talking about how Baertschi had a bad attitude.

I just have to say, you're about as bad with Baertschi as BigTuna is with everything Leafs. The rose coloured glasses and constant victimization of every action is so exhausting.

On the subject of Hartley:
He's a good coach providing us with the most entertaining hockey we've had in years. Coaches have been the brunt of everything for the past 6 or so years, how many do we have to go through before people are happy with what we have? You can't just go out and get Mike Babcock, that's not how it works.

This year, the team is entertaining and competitive DESPITE being pegged for last and looking absolutely wretched on paper. No credit to Hartley on this? Fine. But before we go talking about him ruining the development of Sven (and ignoring how he treats Brodie, Monahan, Bouma, Colborne, and pretty much every prospect or young player with a lot left to learn) lets all take a step back, and relax.

It's kind of incredible that he sits one prospect who has a bad game and suddenly he's he shouldn't be coaching in the NHL and the sky is falling. YEEZUS.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by strombad

I just have to say, you're about as bad with Baertschi as BigTuna is with everything Leafs. The rose coloured glasses and constant victimization of every action is so exhausting.

On the subject of Hartley:
He's a good coach providing us with the most entertaining hockey we've had in years. Coaches have been the brunt of everything for the past 6 or so years, how many do we have to go through before people are happy with what we have? You can't just go out and get Mike Babcock, that's not how it works.

This year, the team is entertaining and competitive DESPITE being pegged for last and looking absolutely wretched on paper. No credit to Hartley on this? Fine. But before we go talking about him ruining the development of Sven (and ignoring how he treats Brodie, Monahan, Bouma, Colborne, and pretty much every prospect or young player with a lot left to learn) lets all take a step back, and relax.

It's kind of incredible that he sits one prospect who has a bad game and suddenly he's he shouldn't be coaching in the NHL and the sky is falling. YEEZUS.

You must be new to CP.

[ComixZone]

Ryan Pike on twitter made a good point the other day about how this may all be a good thing in the long run as Hartley prepares Sven to be "thrown to the wolves" in the spring when Cammalleri/maybe others are traded and he can no longer shelter Sven's minutes.

Post-trade deadline we're really going to see some of our younger players put into some big roles due to a lack of options.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Ryan Pike on twitter made a good point the other day about how this may all be a good thing in the long run as Hartley prepares Sven to be "thrown to the wolves" in the spring when Cammalleri/maybe others are traded and he can no longer shelter Sven's minutes.

Post-trade deadline we're really going to see some of our younger players put into some big roles due to a lack of options.

I think that's also why we're seeing the "tough love" approach to Backlund.

If he can take his game to a place where he can take over Stajan's role, that means they can easily trade Stajan at the deadline. If he can't fill that role, then they need to look at either re-signing or replacing Stajan elsewhere.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Zevo

B. Sutter treats all players the same way...what an idiot and a terrible coach, trying to fit a square peg in a round hole!

B. Hartley uses different methods with different players...what an idiot and terrible coach, all players should be treated the same!

No they both stink... just in different ways.

Sutter was a poor tactician but he generally made logical line-up constructions, Hartley is a decent tactician but he makes sub-optimal line-ups.

[Poe969]

Well they both stink in their own way, but one thing is for sure...they both LOVE Glencross!

[Gary83]

Originally Posted by Parallex

No they both stink... just in different ways.

Sutter was a poor tactician but he generally made logical line-up constructions, Hartley is a decent tactician but he makes sub-optimal line-ups.

I especially enjoyed Sutter's five defenseman pp unit.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Gary83

I especially enjoyed Sutter's five defenseman pp unit.

I was a big fan of Keenan's 0-50 4-5 forward PP unit.

[mrdonkey]

Originally Posted by Parallex

No they both stink... just in different ways.

Sutter was a poor tactician but he generally made logical line-up constructions, Hartley is a decent tactician but he makes sub-optimal line-ups.

It seems my memory is failing me. Is this the same Brent Sutter who would spark near nightly flame wars by giving engagement rings to the Jokinen-Iginla, Butler-Bouwmeester, and Phaneuf-Regehr pairings? The same one who appointed David Moss as the team's #1 centre?

That Brent Sutter?

[FAN]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

He was top-6 in San Jose last year. He was top 6 on the Colorado team that made the playoffs in 2009-10.

Baertschi is actually playing on the Flames #1 line with the Flames best forwards. His linemates have 27 points in 30 games.

The reason Galiardi was traded and Baertschi got scratched? They haven't put it together and flashes of brilliance isn't enough.

[TheCommodoreAfro]

Scratch Sven, lose 5-1. I see a pattern emerging.