The Legend of Sam Bennett

[SportsJunky]

The greatest trick Sam Bennett ever pulled was convincing the Flames he didn't exist.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Yeah that's what I was thinking.

Every team trots out the need to draft the best player available, that never goes challenged unless you want to establish the idea that the Flames (and Flames only!) have somehow created a right shooting blind spot.

Oh and I'll go back 5 drafts before the current GM was in place to start my data!

That is funny. Teams say a lot of things.

You guys think generally organizations do not consider positional need at all?

Do you really think, all things being equal, that the guy drafted 180th overall is clearly better than the guys drafted, say, 181st through 190th (or whatever that grouping of similarly valued players is)? So they are purely taking the absolute best player available? No. They don’t even think that.

It’s kind of absurd to think organizations in general wouldn’t consider positional need when drafting.

What if Tre does think, all things being equal, centres are more valuable than RWs? So given two comparable skill level players, take the C. That could be his thinking and guidance. Wouldn’t surprise me

Because you can easily move a C to wing. Hell, the organization tried Backlund on wing

I think Tre is more of a grinder than a brilliant hockey mind. Just my opinion

Everybody agrees that drafting and developing are important. Do you think it’s coincidence that the organization has drafted disproportionately fewer goalies and RWs over a decade, and it happens to be the two positions where the organization has their challenges?

It is digging in on things like this that brings out the people who perceive others as Tre apologists

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

If you replace "wind" with "fart" this is a top shelf post worthy of the CP hall of fame. I've taken the liberty of marking it up myself.

Username checks out

[powderjunkie]

It's silly to draft for positional need given the timelines involved.

wing should be among the easiest holes to fill via trade/UFA, but this team has always had holes at more important positions which took priority. Which is why it's silly to have pushed the gas pedal to the floor after 2015.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Isn’t it at least as silly to have a roster hole you don’t intend to be able to fill internally?

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Isn’t it at least as silly to have a roster hole you don’t intend to be able to fill internally?

Only if that hole is at C, D or G.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Knightslayer

Half those players or more are no name non NHLers.

You are doing a lot of stretching to try and argue that hardly any RWers shoot left. And have yet to show that teams other than the Flames have some agenda to draft RHS RWs. Have the Flames drafted a lot? No. Were there any obvious RHS RWs available at the appropriate moment? You haven’t shown that at all.

As far as I can tell, RHS is viewed as way more important for D than wing. And a lot of teams make up for no RHS wing by drafting a RHS centre. Who may be able to play wing.

Anyway, the Flames currently have RHS in Duehr, Pitlick, Phillips, Froese, Lewis, Gawdin, Ritchie, Lindholm. We’ll see how that pans out.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

It's silly to draft for positional need given the timelines involved.

wing should be among the easiest holes to fill via trade/UFA, but this team has always had holes at more important positions which took priority. Which is why it's silly to have pushed the gas pedal to the floor after 2015.

Plus a huge portion of wings in the league were centres in junior anyway. Every team has at least one winger who was a centre before. Because they were great centres in junior, they were capable of adapting to wing in the NHL. Landeskog, Huberdeau, Reinhart, etc.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by transplant99

OK....doesnt change the ratio though.

And doesn’t account for the huge number of RHS RWs that are fringe NHLers as well.

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

Dearest Sam Bennett, I must leave you. Why, I cannot say. Where, you cannot know. How I will get there, I haven't decided yet. But one thing I can tell you, any time I hear the wind blow it will whisper the name Sam Bennett. And so let us part with a love that will echo through the ages. — Flames fans


New phone, who dis? — Sam Bennett

Fixed

[CSharp]

LOL - this is THE FATA of all Fata threads! Ceiling is unlimited until the space of the servers are reached!

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

You are doing a lot of stretching to try and argue that hardly any RWers shoot left. And have yet to show that teams other than the Flames have some agenda to draft RHS RWs. Have the Flames drafted a lot? No. Were there any obvious RHS RWs available at the appropriate moment? You haven’t shown that at all.

As far as I can tell, RHS is viewed as way more important for D than wing. And a lot of teams make up for no RHS wing by drafting a RHS centre. Who may be able to play wing.

Anyway, the Flames currently have RHS in Duehr, Pitlick, Phillips, Froese, Lewis, Gawdin, Ritchie, Lindholm. We’ll see how that pans out.

The two closest examples I can think of where the Flames, you could argue, almost drafted a RHS RW was the 2015 and 2017 drafts.

Pure speculation from insiders IIRC, but I know it has been mentioned on a couple of occasions on 32 thoughts that the Flames liked Travis Koeneckny in 2015 (who knows if they actually pick him at 15). There was also a rumored three way trade on the draft floor in 2017 that I believe had the Flames moving up to 3, presumably to pick Puljujarvi. Apparently this all fell through when Columbus picked PLD.

Only raising this as a point of interest. I do believe the Flames prioritize D and C at the draft, as they should, but as Treliving has also said they look for guys who can think the game and have high compete level's. RHS players are great but I don't think that is as important as other attributes the club looks for.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

It's silly to draft for positional need given the timelines involved.

wing should be among the easiest holes to fill via trade/UFA, but this team has always had holes at more important positions which took priority. Which is why it's silly to have pushed the gas pedal to the floor after 2015.

It’s just sooooo easy to find good wingers, especially RWs! The Flames have been searching for a good replacement at RW since Iginla left. Turns out it isn’t that easy. Just like center, you need to draft them, because other teams aren’t giving them up either.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

That is funny. Teams say a lot of things.

You guys think generally organizations do not consider positional need at all?

Do you really think, all things being equal, that the guy drafted 180th overall is clearly better than the guys drafted, say, 181st through 190th (or whatever that grouping of similarly valued players is)? So they are purely taking the absolute best player available? No. They don’t even think that.

It’s kind of absurd to think organizations in general wouldn’t consider positional need when drafting.

What if Tre does think, all things being equal, centres are more valuable than RWs? So given two comparable skill level players, take the C. That could be his thinking and guidance. Wouldn’t surprise me

Because you can easily move a C to wing. Hell, the organization tried Backlund on wing

I think Tre is more of a grinder than a brilliant hockey mind. Just my opinion

Everybody agrees that drafting and developing are important. Do you think it’s coincidence that the organization has drafted disproportionately fewer goalies and RWs over a decade, and it happens to be the two positions where the organization has their challenges?

It is digging in on things like this that brings out the people who perceive others as Tre apologists

Not sure I'd call it funny. Didn't see any humour in it at all.

But no I think later in the draft positioning comes in somewhat, ... maybe not to the extent of area scouts picking hills to die on.

At the top of the draft ... say first two or three rounds though I think you take the best player. So yeah you can get a disparity in depth by positions.

Building up the middle is hardly a Treliving invention, it's pretty common in the way hockey teams are built.

But honestly what are you trying to say here.

That Treliving doesn't like right wingers?
That he's not aware that you need four of them?
He keeps forgetting to check which way they shoot?

Because saying they've drafted less of them when every team pretty much says you take the best player available into some sort of a plan needs more than just you reaching.

The odd thing is it's literally attacking the only area of Treliving's work that seems to be inarguably improved from his predecessors ... the draft.

Calgary ranked 17th in goalies taken from 2015-21 by the way.

[1qqaaz]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

It’s just sooooo easy to find good wingers, especially RWs! The Flames have been searching for a good replacement at RW since Iginla left. Turns out it isn’t that easy. Just like center, you need to draft them, because other teams aren’t giving them up either.

As far as the top of the lineup goes, which position do you think is easier to find than wingers?

Top line centers, #1 d-men, and great goalies are probably more difficult to find.

The Flames seem to be better at getting elite left wingers, but as far as the league goes, most of the best wingers are right wingers.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Not sure I'd call it funny. Didn't see any humour in it at all.

But no I think later in the draft positioning comes in somewhat, ... maybe not to the extent of area scouts picking hills to die on.

At the top of the draft ... say first two or three rounds though I think you take the best player. So yeah you can get a disparity in depth by positions.

Building up the middle is hardly a Treliving invention, it's pretty common in the way hockey teams are built.

But honestly what are you trying to say here.

That Treliving doesn't like right wingers?
That he's not aware that you need four of them?
He keeps forgetting to check which way they shoot?

Because saying they've drafted less of them when every team pretty much says you take the best player available into some sort of a plan needs more than just you reaching.

The odd thing is it's literally attacking the only area of Treliving's work that seems to be inarguably improved from his predecessors ... the draft.

Calgary ranked 17th in goalies taken from 2015-21 by the way.

Treliving has been better than some at drafting, I guess. (Though not too long ago the team’s core was still mainly players drafted by other GMs, until he started losing them for nothing)

So what?

I can’t believe the amount of defense of the organization in light of the basic elements of the case

- the organization has been weak at RW since Iggy left. I don’t think this is disputable
- it is generally accepted that successful franchises draft their talent
- the organization has drafted disproportionately few RWs

I’m not saying anything about what Treliving thinks or knows or believes. Those reaches are yours. My case is simpler. Just observing what he has done, and how it has worked out

The GM can’t be besmirched for this because he has other things he has been worse at?

Like developing Bennett, to get back on track? Lol

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Treliving has been better than some at drafting, I guess. (Though not too long ago the team’s core was still mainly players drafted by other GMs, until he started losing them for nothing)

So what?

I can’t believe the amount of defense of the organization in light of the basic elements of the case

- the organization has been weak at RW since Iggy left. I don’t think this is disputable
- it is generally accepted that successful franchises draft their talent
- the organization has drafted disproportionately few RWs

I’m not saying anything about what Treliving thinks or knows or believes. Those rescues are yours. My case is simpler. Just observing what he has done, and how it has worked out

The GM can’t be besmirched for this because he has other things he has been worse at?

Like developing Bennett, to get back on track? Lol

Were you really laughing out loud? Still didn't see a lot funny.

The 80s Flames were good at center and the right wing, didn't have as much depth on the left side. The Iginla era was the non stop search for centers.

The current Flames are long on the left side, decent up the middle and weak on the right side, especially since they moved their best right wing to center.

But neither of us are debating this, so not sure what your summary was about.

I'm saying all teams have holes, and I consider it quite unlikely they are avoiding drafting right wings as some sort of a plan as you basically suggested.

[DeluxeMoustache]

I do sometimes laugh at absurdity in real life

I can’t believe it is controversial to connect the dearth of depth at RW to the disproportionately low quantity of RW draftees

You’re the one digging to see if I think it’s the plan. Which it isn’t

Because as we know from other posters, there isn’t one

Just kidding

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Treliving has been better than some at drafting, I guess. (Though not too long ago the team’s core was still mainly players drafted by other GMs, until he started losing them for nothing)

So what?

I can’t believe the amount of defense of the organization in light of the basic elements of the case

- the organization has been weak at RW since Iggy left. I don’t think this is disputable
- it is generally accepted that successful franchises draft their talent
- the organization has drafted disproportionately few RWs

I’m not saying anything about what Treliving thinks or knows or believes. Those reaches are yours. My case is simpler. Just observing what he has done, and how it has worked out

The GM can’t be besmirched for this because he has other things he has been worse at?

Like developing Bennett, to get back on track? Lol

The only decent Flames draftee that walked for nothing that I can recall is Brodie.

The Flames have t drafted good RWs, no doubt. It’s because they were trying to shore up other weak areas, mainly down the middle. And Treliving hasn’t ignored RW in his acquisitions. His pro scouting, however, didn’t work well when he made his acquisitions.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by 1qqaaz

As far as the top of the lineup goes, which position do you think is easier to find than wingers?

Top line centers, #1 d-men, and great goalies are probably more difficult to find.

Good players at any position are hard to find. PERIOD. The Flames are proof of that.

The Flames seem to be better at getting elite left wingers, but as far as the league goes, most of the best wingers are right wingers.

This is bull####. They got lucky having Tkachuk fall to them in a draft, and then an undersized 4th round pick, from long before the current management team arrived on the scene, turning into dominant player, but beyond that they have been unable to find #### in a pile of of cow patties. Flames have shown an inability to find anything, no matter what the pom pom waivers claim. Treliving has relied on luck to improve the team, not any insight into drafting or trading for players. This team lacks players of quality at every position, and they are paper thin. It's exactly why the fanbase has so little confidence or enthusiasm for this team.