I agree with all of this, but the fan-service of Obi Wan versus Vader was enough to make me like this show even despite all its flaws.
That's funny the Fan service is almost always the part I hate.
although Obi Wan clearly had a villain problem. they didn't want Vadar in it so much that he was the villain, they just wanted to ring the bell for fans. But failed to write a compelling villain.
For this current chapter, I'm not really sure if we've met the real villain yet, so I'm happy to reserve judgement.
To me, one of the things that was a positive is it bought Hayden back in both Obi-Wan and Ahsoka, it felt full circle.
And I did love the Vader interaction and even the film work that went into the final duel between Vader and Obi-Wan, and it closed the book on their rivalry.
In Ahsoka it was nice to see Anakin in it completing her training. And we got to see what a Dark Side none armored Vader would look like.
Anakin's chilling "You lack Conviction" and "Incorrect" was great. As well as some brilliant film work in the scenes. But both series lost energy when Anakin wasn't there.
__________________
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
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I was really hoping episode 4 was going to redeem the show after what we got in episode 3 which was IMO the worst Star Wars anything I've seen, even in the Disney era.
Also maybe it's been mentioned but Carrie Ann Moss (Trinity) and the Wookie Jedi were front and center for all promotions leading up to this show and they BOTH die immediately? (the Wookie without even getting to see him fight). Am I crazy or is that just a bonkers decision.. I'm not asking for the greatest project of all time but jeeze, maybe let the first ever live-action Jedi Wookie do something cool?
Another minor gripe but.. why would jedi need to use "trackers" to find two force sensitives in the forest instead of I don't know.. using the force? The jedi are kinda dumb and emotional in this show. Complete opposite of the way the Jedi Order is portrayed in all other media.
The one thing that keeps me coming back each week though is that I want to see how they handle this Acolyte/Sith character with the helmet and whether or not he's the master, and whether they tie it in with some cool storylines from either Plaguis and/or Tenebrus, this show is "canon" after all. Really trying to stay positive that there's some cool reveal about the lineage of the Sith.
they teased a Wookie Jedi and then just killed him off-screen
is just mind-boggling to me. It's like they actively try to make their lives harder.
Spoiler!
Yeah and to add to that, apparently they did shoot a scene where he died fighting but decided it didn't fit with the pacing of the episode so they cut it.... I kinda feel like the people wanted to see that.
Yeah and to add to that, apparently they did shoot a scene where he died fighting but decided it didn't fit with the pacing of the episode so they cut it.... I kinda feel like the people wanted to see that.
Seriously? I was going to comment that the episode would have been good but the pacing was horrendous. So much time just wandering in the forest...then a character says something profound...then more wandering. I guess they wanted to go all in on:
Spoiler!
the reveal of the master at the end? But why?
Until the end, where there was a dramatic change of tone, the episode reminded me a lot of those Ewok movies, Battle for Endor and Caravan of Courage.
Seriously? I was going to comment that the episode would have been good but the pacing was horrendous. So much time just wandering in the forest...then a character says something profound...then more wandering. I guess they wanted to go all in on:
Spoiler!
the reveal of the master at the end? But why?
Until the end, where there was a dramatic change of tone, the episode reminded me a lot of those Ewok movies, Battle for Endor and Caravan of Courage.
Spoiler!
Yeah so last night one of the writers for the show was sent to the slaughterhouse on Twitter to try to do damage control and engage with the fans/answer questions because the show hasn't been received well. When asked about the wookie jedi and why he just shows up dead.. she said the fight was filmed and left on the cutting room floor for pacing reasons. Incredible.
Also she was asked if Dave Filoni has any sway in regards to this show or whether he approves the scripts and she said yes he gets final approval on everything.. and then within 5 minutes that post was deleted (I like to imagine that Filoni or his people heard about it and were like "HELL NO take that down").
Probably the best episode of the season so far, mainly because of the development of the "Master"
We now know that Qimir is the "Master" Sith, and we saw the power of the Sith as he pretty much casually and brutally killed everyone. That's right Yord ended up looking at his own bum before he died, Jecki was made into a lightsaber pin cushion. The only survivors were Mae, Osha, Master Sol.
The fights and deaths were brutal, and the fight cherography was really well done, as we had duel welding light sabre action.
The explanation of the Master and the why's were a bit convoluted, He wants an acolyte and he wants freedom to weld his power without rules, which goes back to the Sith Code.
Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken.
There was some strangeness and hints. The Master told Osha not to trust her Master, and in the confrontation between the Sisters when Osha blamed the death of the witches and the fire on Mae, Mae told her she was brainwashed by the Jedi, and Sol was acting fairly guilty near the end of the episode.
But in the end after spending the episode trying to kill Mae, the Master showed some compassion towards her.
And then we got the weird moment when Mae gave herself a hair cut with her newly acquired lightsabre.
I still believe that the Jedi killed the witches, with Sol at the lead, If I'm right this will go full circle to why the Jedi will fall. The arrogance and religious zealotry.
I'm also more convinced then ever the Qimir is not the master, that the Master is out there pulling the strings, and Qimir is like a Darth Maul, a berzerker, that is just there to kill Jedi and learn from his master.
I'm still convinced that we've seen the true Dark Lord of the Sith, and I'm even more sure now that the cat is out of the bag with Qimir announcing that hes Sith, remember 100 years down the road, the Jedi had thought the Sith extinct for a 1000 years.
But overall one of the better episodes, because first of all, it was mostly action, and second of all because they made the Sith look incredibly powerful, without throwing lightning or anything else.
Trivia
Damn Manny Jacinto has some guns, but it was weird that he had armor that could short out light sabres (Cortosis) and yet was bare armed.
Jecki's death was the second most brutal death tonight, and it was filmed excellently as you saw it from behind her as the Sith just kept punching holes on her. Thought the casual neck snap of Yord was cool too. Oh and there was the other when he ran through two Jedi at the same time.
Its interesting that Osha's whole life with the Jedi could have been based on a lie.
It was an interesting slant back to the Darth Bane books, as Mae who seems to run from everyone apologized to her Master, who then tried to kill her. In the Darth Bane books during a fight with one of his former masters, the master begged for mercy and Bane scoffed at his pleas "Those who ask for mercy are too weak to deserve it" Then he crushed him.
At the end of the episode in the final scene with the Master we hear Kylo Ren's theme.
__________________
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
Last edited by CaptainCrunch; 06-25-2024 at 09:15 PM.
I felt like Qimir killing most everyone really showed how unprepared the old Jedi order was too face modern Sith. Jecki literally said he didn't follow the rules of combat, his movements were unpredictable.
I felt like Qimir killing most everyone really showed how unprepared the old Jedi order was too face modern Sith. Jecki literally said he didn't follow the rules of combat, his movements were unpredictable.
Spoiler!
In the Revenge of the Sith Novel, we actually got into Yoda's thoughts as he fought Sidious, and it was one of the best pieces of Sith Lore that I've seen.
While they were fighting Yoda realized that when the Sith went into exile and followed the rule of two, they spent their time aquiring all knowledge of the Force. The Dark, the Light, they gained a complete understanding, while each Sith Master became more powerful then the last due to the rule of two. The Sith evolved and plotted and followed the concept of gaining greater power through knowledge.
Meanwhile the Jedi had spent the last thousand years training to fight tthe Sith that they had fought in the last war, when the Sith were "wiped out".
And at that key moment, for all of his power in the force, and all of his training, Yoda just didn't have it to defeat the Sith. And that's why he fled the battle and went into exile.
The Jedi by the time of the Phantom Menace were at the height of their arrogance. In the deleted scenes in Attack of the Clones, Kenobi talked about this with Yoda and Windu, as Kenobi was complaining about the arrogance of his Padawan, and Yoda shot back that this was a trait that most Masters had as well.
Even in the high republic era, we saw the stagnation of the Jedi, and the "Master" was almost casual in wiping them out, even if he's an apprentice as I suspect, he's extremely well trained, and clearly well taught. So if there's a master, imagine what he's going to be like.
I still wonder how they get around the whole "The Sith have been extinct forever, and they couldn't return without us knowing.
Right now we have at least one Jedi witness in Sol, that heard the proclamation by Qimir that he was Sith.
So either Sol has to die, which I suspect will happen, or the Master is a high council member and will supress the truth.
Also I was thinking about the weird scene with the haircut by Mae over her unconscious sister, and then the Master finding Mae sleeping, I wonder if Maee pulled the switcheroo and that was Osha that was in Mae's clothes, and Mae is on the way to the Jedi temple, to either kill Sol, or gain back the faith of her master?
__________________
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
The rule of two just makes no sense. Are you just letting a whole slew of Force sensitive users go to waste while you’re cultivating and training that one person who doesn’t necessarily out? Meanwhile, thousands have grown up with no training and are working blue collar jobs?
The rule of two for the Sith does kinda make sense.
Over a 1000 years ago, there were thousands of Sith, under the leadership of Lord Kaan (Legends). They basically fought the Jedi Order to a standstill, but were eventually destroyed as the Sith in their nature crave power so they turn against each other.
Bane realized two things.
1) Sith can't work together in the long term, and an army of Sith is never going to defeat an army of Jedi.
2) The more you spread the force out, the more you weaken the individual, he saw the force as a finite pool basically. The fewer the Sith, the more powerful the individual.
So he reformed the Sith Order (Ie killed off all the Sith but himself).
In the rule of two, he felt that he was creating two indivduals of supreme power to the individual jedi. The Sith Lord had all the power and knowledge, his job was to teach the apprentice what he knew, the apprentice had the obligtion to learn from his master and learn on his or her own. Thus eventually surpassing the master.
Bane also theorized that a Master that took on more then one apprentice was a fool, as the apprentices would eventually team up to kill the master.
At the same time, Bane realized that the Sith were never going to defeate the Jedi Army on Army. So he created the Grand Plan, which was to work in the shadows, use cunning and deception, and slowly corrupt the Republic, so Bane built networks of power brokers, and information brokers and corrupted senators, and his apprentices carried on that work right up until Palpatine. By the time Palpatine took power as the Supreme Chancellor the Republic had rotted. But the Clone Wars and putting the Jedi in the position to be slaughtered by their loyal clone troopers, that idea was all Palpatine.
So the question is, what happens if the Lord of the Sith is killed before his apprentice can learn all he can learn. Well, the Sith Order suffers a blow but its not crippling, as the apprentice becomes the Master and the Force will provide an opportunity for an apprentice. If the apprentice is killed, like Maul was, the same thing, The Sith Master retreats, finds a apprentice and continues on.
If both are killed, then the order ends, so you rarely see the Master and Apprentice in vulnerable positions together.
__________________
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
But you’re kind of in a mess if you’re a 75 year old Sith lord and your apprentice gets off’d prematurely. What are you doing then? You’re no spring chicken at that point. It seems like it would at least be better to have a dyad per planet or something. Then the Sith aren’t wholly defeated because of old age and an untrained apprentice.
Again like most fiction, if you think too hard about it, it just doesn't make sense. Even in cut throat feudal monarchies just 1 apprentice wouldn't suffice "an heir and a spare" as it's said. But we need to square the lore with the statement "always two there are, a master and an apprentice", then they need to spin webs to make that statement square with the fact that then need more powerful antagonists, so they start resurrecting characters like Maul, or creating sub categories like acolytes or whatever you would call Ventress. None of it makes sense, but it is just a way to continue recycling the tension that is required to have narrative.
This isn't a Star Wars thing, it's a fiction thing. Try to figure out the rules of Quidditch, or ask yourself how Kirk and Picard can maintain their command when the violate the prime directive once / week. The reality is the rules are set up in a way to maximize narrative tension, not to be consistent with how someone with real motivations would act, or how something could actually function in the real world.
Watched the first 2 episodes when they released, haven't watched since. Not necessarily because I didn't like it, just didn't really grab me either. Haven't clicked on any of the spoilers in the thread.
How's this show going? How does it compare to other Disney+ Star Wars series? Worth going back to or approaching skippable?
In the Revenge of the Sith Novel, we actually got into Yoda's thoughts as he fought Sidious, and it was one of the best pieces of Sith Lore that I've seen.
While they were fighting Yoda realized that when the Sith went into exile and followed the rule of two, they spent their time aquiring all knowledge of the Force. The Dark, the Light, they gained a complete understanding, while each Sith Master became more powerful then the last due to the rule of two. The Sith evolved and plotted and followed the concept of gaining greater power through knowledge.
Meanwhile the Jedi had spent the last thousand years training to fight tthe Sith that they had fought in the last war, when the Sith were "wiped out".
And at that key moment, for all of his power in the force, and all of his training, Yoda just didn't have it to defeat the Sith. And that's why he fled the battle and went into exile.
The Jedi by the time of the Phantom Menace were at the height of their arrogance. In the deleted scenes in Attack of the Clones, Kenobi talked about this with Yoda and Windu, as Kenobi was complaining about the arrogance of his Padawan, and Yoda shot back that this was a trait that most Masters had as well.
Even in the high republic era, we saw the stagnation of the Jedi, and the "Master" was almost casual in wiping them out, even if he's an apprentice as I suspect, he's extremely well trained, and clearly well taught. So if there's a master, imagine what he's going to be like.
I still wonder how they get around the whole "The Sith have been extinct forever, and they couldn't return without us knowing.
Right now we have at least one Jedi witness in Sol, that heard the proclamation by Qimir that he was Sith.
So either Sol has to die, which I suspect will happen, or the Master is a high council member and will supress the truth.
Also I was thinking about the weird scene with the haircut by Mae over her unconscious sister, and then the Master finding Mae sleeping, I wonder if Maee pulled the switcheroo and that was Osha that was in Mae's clothes, and Mae is on the way to the Jedi temple, to either kill Sol, or gain back the faith of her master?
Spoiler!
There's definitely been a switch with Osha and Mae. OSha has that tattoo, and there was a subtle shift in " Osha's" affect and speech at the end of the episode, more stilted. Now my question is why Qimir has spared Osha twice now? He flicked her out of the way rather than kill her the first time, now he's coving her with his cloak?
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