Well, I am glad that you are satisfied with middle of the pack. I am not. And I do not think this roster is middle of the pack, talent-wise. I would take that a step further and say that anyone who does, should be lobbying for another rebuild, because this core is going to be the core for a long time.
Things ebb and flow. One day a player looks like a world-beater and on another day, it seems like they may never score again. That is part of sports. So judging the talent of a team is a very fluid and volatile exercise.
However, I think it is always fair to step back and ask the question is the team performing as well as they should be? Are we getting as much out of the roster as we should be? Is the team overachieving, under-achieving, or right where they should be?
And every time I ask myself that question regarding this team I always end up with the same answer. They are not performing to the level they should be.
Like EE said about a hundred posts ago: Gulutzan is a smart guy, a likable guy, a great Xs and Os guy. But he isn't a good bench boss. He isn't getting enough out of the team, and they simply aren't competing to the level they should be.
I have been a STH for 15 years. There have been good years, bad years, and ugly years. But there have been few years more frustrating than this one. many times this season - and again last night - I sat there wondering why I dish out the money I do for the privilege of being repeatedly frustrated.
The team is better than what we are seeing on home ice. Some of that is on the players, no question. But some of that is also on the coach. Last night was a blatant example.
It's time for this core to take the next step. But it keeps on not taking that step. And IMO, a major reason why is that Gulutzan isn't capable of getting them there.
This is such a lame circular discussion.
What is the freakin' evidence this team should've been any different than they were last year?
Did they graduate a top tier Calder-level rookkie into the lineup as compared to last year? Did they add a goal scoring or game breaking top line/top 6 player to the lineup?
This team wasn't good enough to make the playoffs until they grabbed Stone last year, and then after adding him, weren't good enough to do more than squeak into the playoffs and get swept.
So they went out and added another top 4 defender and what has turned out to be a top flight goaltender.
This year through 47 games the flames have allowed 125 goals. Last year, through 47 games, the Flames had allowed 125 goals.
This year the Flames have scored 131 goals through 47 games. Last season, through 47 games, the Flames had scored 122 goals.
Ok, Ok, but what about the Hartley offensive juggernaut? What about the coach that was coaching to his players strengths?
At the 47 game mark of the season preceding Gulutzan, the Flames had scored 122 goals. In the last season under Hartley the flames had allowed 142 goals, 4th worst in the league.
The thing that kept Treliving up at night by his own admission has come to pass. The team cannot score enough goals. Even with Career years from Monahan, Gaudreau, Ferland and Tkachuk, the team is barely scoring more goals, certainly they are not scoring 'enough'.
What is the freakin' evidence this team should be better than they are? I just don't get it. This is a middle of the pack team in basically every single measurable category you could think of.
Is the argument that if Boudreau was coach that Stajan would score more?
Is the argument that if Quennville was coach that Monahan would be on a 60 goal pace instead of 40? Is Ferland a 70 goal player under Barry Trotz?
What is the actual, DEFINITIVE argument for why or how this team is underperforming?
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What is the actual, DEFINITIVE argument for why or how this team is underperforming?
Gulutzan. He's playing players where they're weak, he does not match lines, he refuses to try new things, he basically is not doing what good coaches do, which is to figure out optimal results per player.
Breaking up Giordano and Brodie might be the reason Brodie has nosedived. Why not try them together again?
The top line is stalling. What is so crazy about trying Tkachuk up there?
I want to list about 5 more ideas, but I know I'll just get ripped to shreds on little details, so I'll just skip straight to the point... Gulutzan does not have the vision to try new things. Unless you consider the Brouwer experiment in OT last night a new thing. That was about as awesome as the car Homer Simpson designed.
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Funny thing about opinions, they're not definitive. That is the realm of facts. If you think the team is middle of the pack, put an argument together to support that. But yelling that there isn't definitive proof of the opinions that others hold seems pretty adolescent to me.
To discuss some actual points you made, yes they got better when they acquired Stone. And they went out and made sure Stone came back this year. And they added Hamonic as well. Improvement.
They improved the goaltending. Significantly.
The forward group still isn't great, but the best pieces are all young so assuming growth and progress doesn't seem to radical to me.
Location: Wondering when # became hashtag and not a number sign.
Exp:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flash Walken
This year through 47 games the flames have allowed 125 goals. Last year, through 47 games, the Flames had allowed 125 goals.
This year the Flames have scored 131 goals through 47 games. Last season, through 47 games, the Flames had scored 122 goals.
Ok, Ok, but what about the Hartley offensive juggernaut? What about the coach that was coaching to his players strengths?
At the 47 game mark of the season preceding Gulutzan, the Flames had scored 122 goals. In the last season under Hartley the flames had allowed 142 goals, 4th worst in the league.
Wow...that is crazy.
Speaks volumes for sure.
I still think this club can be better defensively than they have, though as of late they have been very good.
Offensively though? I dunno. This group should be better but they haven't been able to find it. I agree with Enoch that they should be getting more offense from the Dmen but that doesn't look like its changing anytime soon.
Flash, do you believe that all teams play to their ability all the time? Do you believe that the Knights are the most talented team in the NHL?
It's a team game. And teams don't always run at peak capacity. It is not at all unreasonable to discuss the possibility that a team is under-performing.
See it's this kind of statement that divides the fans. They have taken 2 points in 2 games where they haven't played all that well. Some would see this as a positive. Just sayin'.
Again, I'm down because of the last two games, but overall we went on a pretty awesome winning streak, but the fact of the matter remains that that winning streak just negated a bunch of poor play from earlier in the season.
We're not ahead.
__________________ The Beatings Shall Continue Until Morale Improves!
This Post Has Been Distilled for the Eradication of Seemingly Incurable Sadness.
The World Ends when you're dead. Until then, you've got more punishment in store. - Flames Fans
If you thought this season would have a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention.
I still think this club can be better defensively than they have, though as of late they have been very good.
Offensively though? I dunno. This group should be better but they haven't been able to find it. I agree with Enoch that they should be getting more offense from the Dmen but that doesn't look like its changing anytime soon.
Yes it is crazy. But it doesn't go deep enough. Okay, the numbers from year to year are pretty similar.
But should they be?
Let's look at the rosters from 2 years ago, last year, and this year. Should this team be doing exactly as well as those last two iterations did?
I sure as hell don't think so. And anyone that does should be screaming for Treliving's head. Because that would be a huge waste of two years of rebuilding and a whole bunch of picks.
Are you suggesting young players come into the league and are polished, ready to go?
Obviously not, and way to rebut with an absolute.
But the fact of the matter is that this team has been together for a few years now and should be progressing. Lots of teams that were younger at the time than the Flames are now have managed to take the next step.
Excusing why they aren't taking the next step is, by definition, an excuse.
I also think that you and I have different amounts of skin in this game. I haven't lived in Calgary for years. The Jets game on the weekend was my first Flames game in the dome in 3(?) years. Now, that doesn't mean that I'm any less of a fan, mind you. I've lived and died with this team since I was a kid when they first came to town. But nowadays, my pain threshold is probably higher than most with regard to how these guys are playing.
If I was a 15 year season ticket holder as you are...I might be a little pissed with how things are going.
The other thing that Flash's stats don't consider is Smith. If not for Smith, this team would not have the record they do, and would not compare favorably or even evenly to last season.
This team should be better than last year's team. But so far, it has only managed to be equally as good because of the heroics of Smith.
Again, how is that at all justifiable based on the roster. Is there anyone here that thinks this team is less talented than last year's? If so, please explain how.
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Gully leaving the same exhuasted PK unit out there without a Center went down like this 4:19 mark of clip and pay attention to the play by play initial comment regarding O'Reilly the #1 NHL draw man this season
Gulutzan's lack of logic reminded me of this wonderful gem ...
I also think that you and I have different amounts of skin in this game. I haven't lived in Calgary for years. The Jets game on the weekend was my first Flames game in the dome in 3(?) years. Now, that doesn't mean that I'm any less of a fan, mind you. I've lived and died with this team since I was a kid when they first came to town. But nowadays, my pain threshold is probably higher than most with regard to how these guys are playing.
If I was a 15 year season ticket holder as you are...I might be a little pissed with how things are going.
Yeah, and that's a very fair comment.
By the way, I am usually very level headed about this stuff, and far more patient than the majority of fans I think.
But there has been something about the way they play this year that has been driving me crazy. When you sit at the Dome each game and watch them fumble pass after pass, you just want to pull your hair out. And I am pretty sure they didn't all suddenly lose all of their hockey skills - it's all in their heads and it's all about the way they are playing.
But it's not that they can't play. Because at times they look like world beaters. And on the road, when they simplify their game and just play, they are great.
But the Dome has been a nightmare this year. And I put a good chunk of the blame on the coaches.
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Funny thing about opinions, they're not definitive. That is the realm of facts. If you think the team is middle of the pack, put an argument together to support that.
But see, I don't have to, because reality is proving it for me. They are in the middle third of the league in the standings. They are middle third by conference, they are middle third by division.
The offence has picked up recently but only enough to get them into the middle third for goals for at 19th in the league. Despite being a bottom third team in goals for most of the year, they are nearing the top third in Shots For. Does that mean the players are great at getting shots but the system is limiting goals, or does it mean the players are bad at scoring goals but the system is getting them shots?
The team is middle third for goal differential, but they are 10th in the league in goals against.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enoch Root
Yes it is crazy. But it doesn't go deep enough. Okay, the numbers from year to year are pretty similar.
You can say similiar but it's more accurate to say they are better. In a league where goals have gone up, GA has stayed the same. In a league where goals are up, the Flames have more goals.
Quote:
But should they be?
Let's look at the rosters from 2 years ago, last year, and this year. Should this team be doing exactly as well as those last two iterations did?
Offensively? Yes, because the roster hasn't added any additional goal scoring over those seasons. Ferland, Monahan, Tkachuk and Gaudreau are having lights out offensive seasons, and account for a greater percentage of the team's offence than last year, but the team is roughly in the same position as it relates to the rest of the league offensively. Couldn't that be an indication the team has actually gotten worse offensively as compared to previous years?
Quote:
I sure as hell don't think so. And anyone that does should be screaming for Treliving's head. Because that would be a huge waste of two years of rebuilding and a whole bunch of picks.
I think Treliving has made some very bad roster decisions in recent years as it pertains to young players, draft picks and trades. There are mitigating factors but in the end he did not address the second most significant issue the team had last season and expended a tremendous amount of draft picks in not doing so.
But the Dome has been a nightmare this year. And I put a good chunk of the blame on the coaches.[/QUOTE]
I don't get the above.
The coaches don't control the cute passes they try and fail at.....in fact I bet the message is no cute stuff.....just work hard and stick to the systems.
I think too much is going on in these guys heads and it makes me wonder where it comes from.
As a fan I don't care how ugly the goals are I just want goals. When I see this team deflated after a goal I wonder what the hell is wrong if they fold that fast.
The first year Bob was here I hadn't seen a team fight back like that since Darryl was here. Anyway. Glen demonstrated perfectly that he still doesn't know which weapons to utilize in games we have to win.
#### the points we gain.....I'm glad we get them but come-on come-on ffs.....let's stop patting ourselves on the back for getting a point out of a game.
I'm so sick of the rainbows and happiness some people are happy with when we don't win. Glens post game presser had me wishing Burke was going to pop out of nowhere with a chair and break across Glens face.
Winning is all that matters. Competing isn't even happening this year.most nights......oh well crawling back under my rock after ranting about nothing.
Well, I am glad that you are satisfied with middle of the pack. I am not. And I do not think this roster is middle of the pack, talent-wise. I would take that a step further and say that anyone who does, should be lobbying for another rebuild, because this core is going to be the core for a long time.
That's a very black and white view of things. Triggering another re-build isn't a guarantee of anything. This team has enough pieces that the window is open to some extent. Increasingly the NHL is becoming more and more even, meaning season to season you have fewer elite teams, and a huge number of teams in the middle. I expect that teams will move in and out of the playoffs more frequently. But that doesn't mean that I should look at this team, and when making an honest comparison of this roster versus others, and say it is a top team - when on paper - I just don't think it is.
