The New American Politics thread

[T@T]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I'd suggest that's because most Americans don't understand the ramifications of protectionist trade policies. The fact that most stuff we buy today is way, way cheaper than it was 50 years ago has gone unnoticed in the popular consciousness. Ask people if they want to see protectionist policies if it means everything they buy at WalMart will cost 30 to 70 per cent more and see how they respond. I mean, they have the option today to buy locally produced goods or foreign-made ones, so this isn't some hypothetical issue.

No! From memory with inflation I can only think of a few items, Color TV's in 1975 were expensive and probably a few other electronics as solid state was fairly new, Booze was close to the same as now but many many other items were way cheaper then.

Average wage was about $9300.00 per year converted to today's money it would be about $40.000 per year, real time average wage in Canada is about $48,000 a year now but it's not near enough to make up the difference.

Automobiles.
!975 loaded Corvette convertible was $7400.00, converted to today's money it would cost you about $32,000. today's corvette is about $83,000

Average car price was under $4000.00, (should be about $15,500 today) clearly a lot cheaper then.

Man's haircut in 1975 was $1.50 (should be $6.50 today) now it's 3 times that price at least.

Loaf of bread in 1975 was about 30 cents, I remember 4 for a buck.(should be $1.30 today) Bread is at least twice the price now.

Gas in 1975 was about 14 cents a liter.. duh!

I could go on and on but there isn't a need, dollar went farther in 1975 period.

[PsYcNeT]

Cars are tariff ridden, gas has bizarre taxation, and bread and haircuts are locally provided.

His point (which is correct), is that general goods manufactured overseas are ludicrously cheap in comparison.

A t-shirt made in a Malaysian sweatshop from Old Navy costs you $5 CDN. Were you able to buy a t-shirt for ~$1.20 in 1975?

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I'd suggest that's because most Americans don't understand the ramifications of protectionist trade policies. The fact that most stuff we buy today is way, way cheaper than it was 50 years ago has gone unnoticed in the popular consciousness. Ask people if they want to see protectionist policies if it means everything they buy at WalMart will cost 30 to 70 per cent more and see how they respond. I mean, they have the option today to buy locally produced goods or foreign-made ones, so this isn't some hypothetical issue.

Cliff, I'm surprised to see a post from you that seems to rely so heavily on anecdote.

You've changed it now from American's don't want, now they don't understand what they don't want.

This is an area where politics has clearly abandoned popular support.

Sixty-four percent of Americans say they would be willing to pay more to buy a U.S.-made product than a similar product made in other countries. This includes the vast majority, 88%, of those who make a special effort to buy U.S.-made products, but also nearly half of those, 44%, who do not.

More specifically, the most common reasons for "buying American" were to support the U.S. or to be patriotic, mentioned by 32% of adults who sought out U.S.-made products in recent months, and to keep or create jobs in the country, mentioned by 31%. Additionally 20% said that buying U.S.-made products is good for the U.S. economy in general.

These are from a 2008 Gallup Poll.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

I mean, what people will tell a pollster on this subject and what they actually do voting with their wallet are different, wouldn't you say? I wouldn't dismiss the poll numbers outright but especially when people's money is involved, when push comes to shove I have little difficulty imagining that many will buy the cheaper item regardless of what they say their priorities are. I guess what I'm saying is, there has to be some delta there to account for people who are just virtue signaling in poll responses... I don't know how big a delta but this is one situation where you can look at spending habits in areas where there IS a clear choice to buy US made vs Chinese etc. made. It's not that tough to buy us made clothes, for example, but people don't..

[Coach]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

I mean, what people will tell a pollster on this subject and what they actually do voting with their wallet are different, wouldn't you say? I wouldn't dismiss the poll numbers outright but especially when people's money is involved, when push comes to shove I have little difficulty imagining that many will buy the cheaper item regardless of what they say their priorities are. I guess what I'm saying is, there has to be some delta there to account for people who are just virtue signaling in poll responses... I don't know how big a delta but this is one situation where you can look at spending habits in areas where there IS a clear choice to buy US made vs Chinese etc. made. It's not that tough to buy us made clothes, for example, but people don't..

Was thinking the same thing.

If I was to answer the same poll, I would say all the right things, and I do believe in those things philosophically. Does that mean I check every thing I'm buy to make sure it's local? No. If I happen to notice something is made in Canada vs China, I'll go with Canada, but it's not something I'm seeking out.

I would venture to guess there are a lot of purchasing of products from China, Malaysia, etc.. without people even realizing that a a Made in the USA product is right beside it, but people's only concern is the price. I wish that my job provided me the income necessary to not have to seek out the lowest price on a lot of stuff, unfortunately, it does. An 10-50% on things adds up pretty fast if you're doing it for everything possible.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by T@T

No! From memory with inflation I can only think of a few items, Color TV's in 1975 were expensive and probably a few other electronics as solid state was fairly new, Booze was close to the same as now but many many other items were way cheaper then...

I could go on and on but there isn't a need, dollar went farther in 1975 period.

Big ticket items like houses and cars are more expensive today. But 'stuff', all the goods you can buy at Walmart or Sears or Best Buy, is a lot cheaper.

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeagurse

I mean, what people will tell a pollster on this subject and what they actually do voting with their wallet are different, wouldn't you say?

Agreed. Again, we don't have to speculate or look at polls. For most consumers, all that matters is price. That's why the mid-range in retail is vanishing. You have the 75 per cent of people who only want what's cheapest, and the 25 per cent who are choosy and have enough money to afford the best.

We don't have to look at just manufacturing either. Brick and mortar retailers are getting eaten alive by online sellers. People won't spend 10.99 for a book at a Chapters store if they can get it from Amazon for 8.99. Heck, people won't even support Chapters online if it means paying .20 more than Amazon online. And that means fewer and worse jobs, and the money all being hoovered up by a megacorp. But that's what consumers have chosen.

So a better poll would offer concrete options. "Would you support a 30 per cent surcharge on all online purchases in order to keep retailers open and jobs in Canada?"

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

I mean, what people will tell a pollster on this subject and what they actually do voting with their wallet are different, wouldn't you say? I wouldn't dismiss the poll numbers outright but especially when people's money is involved, when push comes to shove I have little difficulty imagining that many will buy the cheaper item regardless of what they say their priorities are. I guess what I'm saying is, there has to be some delta there to account for people who are just virtue signaling in poll responses... I don't know how big a delta but this is one situation where you can look at spending habits in areas where there IS a clear choice to buy US made vs Chinese etc. made. It's not that tough to buy us made clothes, for example, but people don't..

I agree on the validity of public opinion polls, yet, that's what we were discussing.

There is also concrete evidence in terms of sales figures. I am on the edges of the textile and apparel business and am aware of the shift.

For example, Karen Kane:

"Last year, Karen Kane dresses, blouses and jackets promoted with Made-in-USA posters at Dillard's department store posted 15% higher sales than similar non-promoted clothing, Michael Kane says."

Internal market research suggests customers are buying fewer clothing items than in previous years but are spending more money on the items they buy. It's corollary but speaks to generational shift that I see in our own business. Millennials are choosing to buy fewer, better quality items and that has an impact on the margins we choose to pursue.

As much as you can't rely on public opinion polls to show consumer trends, you also can't rely on sales figures to point to consumer trends. What Cliff is talking about in terms of the middle market disappearing just so happens to be happening as middle incomes are disappearing. Wal-Mart isn't successful because people only want cheap goods, Wal-Mart is successful because most people can't afford anything BUT cheap goods.

You can just as easily make the argument that when wages are down, consumer spending is down.

When Joe Blow gets a forced wage cut in Alberta and starts going to McDonalds instead of Earls, does that mean Joe Blow is choosing McDonalds over Earls? In a facile way, I guess he is, but the actual causes that determine his decision making don't reflect that outcome. Were it up to Joe Blow, he'd still be making the same wage and eating at Earls.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

You know, people say stuff like this on this site all the time, but then other people on here say make sure to only spend money so that you live within your means, have an emergency fund, TFSA's, retirement savings, own your house, don't waste money when you don't have to, look for deals, yadda yadda yadda.

Well wtf? Which one is it? There's only so much money to go around.

Like I said in my post, it is possible to manufacture something in North America and be competitive with your price.

People have shown that they will buy it as well.

We as consumers need to tell Walmart and others that where they are sourcing products from is not okay.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

I'm not sure how to judge "the worlds best hoodie" but a quick look at their website tells me the basic one (the one at the top) is 89 American dollars.

You aren't going to convince many people to buy that, "slave like conditions" or not.

How is that expensive? Most other hoodies I've seen in Canada are very similar price. Carhartt has the next because one and it also costs $70-$80.

Obviously for someone who cannot afford that price point, I agree....not gonna happen, but I think most people would be okay with paying that kind of money for a hoodie.

[Azure]

My other question is, what is acceptable for people to pay when they buy a dress shirt? $40? Because thinking a shirt should cost $10 is crazy. It certainly takes more than 1 hour to make from start to finish, and people shouldn't be paid less than $10/h.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Azure

How is that expensive? Most other hoodies I've seen in Canada are very similar price. Carhartt has the next because one and it also costs $70-$80.

Obviously for someone who cannot afford that price point, I agree....not gonna happen, but I think most people would be okay with paying that kind of money for a hoodie.

Why do you think most people would be okay paying that kind of money for a hoodie (or any other article of clothing) when people don't do it right now? Even if they can afford it they don't.

Everyone knows where their clothes come from and they don't care. People like cheap. If you can buy four hoodies at Walmart for 90 bucks, or one at American Giant, we know what most people are going to do because they do it right now -- they buy the cheap stuff.

[jayswin]

Yeah, I don't know how well off azure is, but the idea that the average person is willing to buy slightly better clothes/product at a higher price to support north American products is completely removed from a reality we can see right in front of us

[Fire of the Phoenix]

It could say "made by child slaves" on the label and people would still buy it if it was cheap enough. A huge majority of people only care about issues like that when they're waxing philosophically, maybe over a couple of drinks. In reality, most don't give two ####s about how crappy the world is. They care only about the bubble that they live in.

[Flash Walken]

I buy my hoodies from Costco.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

It could say "made by child slaves" on the label and people would still buy it if it was cheap enough. A huge majority of people only care about issues like that when they're waxing philosophically, maybe over a couple of drinks. In reality, most don't give two ####s about how crappy the world is. They care only about the bubble that they live in.

I disagree.

Force retailers to mark where it comes from combined with educational campaigns of how our clothes are made and some people will buy North American made clothes.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Why do you think most people would be okay paying that kind of money for a hoodie (or any other article of clothing) when people don't do it right now? Even if they can afford it they don't.

Everyone knows where their clothes come from and they don't care. People like cheap. If you can buy four hoodies at Walmart for 90 bucks, or one at American Giant, we know what most people are going to do because they do it right now -- they buy the cheap stuff.

You do realize that American Giant had month long waiting lists for their hoodie, right?

I get that a lot of people will still buy Walmart hoodies because they are cheap, but clearly there is a demand for American made clothes.

[MRCboicgy]

God I love my American Giant hoodie. It's the only one I've had for the last two years.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Brick and mortar retailers are getting eaten alive by online sellers. People won't spend 10.99 for a book at a Chapters store if they can get it from Amazon for 8.99.

Just a quick comment:
There often isn't much of a price difference between brick and mortar stores and online stores when it comes to books. (Especially if you don't happen to live in an English speaking country but want to buy Angloamerican fiction.) Buying books from Amazon is just WAY more convenient. Amazon is much better at recommending interesting books than any bookstore I've ever visited. Plus the average brick and mortar store has at best a 50/50 chance of actually having the book I want when I want it, so why even bother going there (which is at best a 30 minute trip) when an online store can deliver it to me. (And it'll take about 1 minute of effort in my part.)

I won't miss looking for books in bookstores one bit. I've never seen one with really good staff anyway. Just like I don't really miss record stores. Most of them had crappy elitist staff that at the end of the day didn't know that much more about the stuff they sold than I did.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

It could say "made by child slaves" on the label and people would still buy it if it was cheap enough. A huge majority of people only care about issues like that when they're waxing philosophically, maybe over a couple of drinks. In reality, most don't give two ####s about how crappy the world is. They care only about the bubble that they live in.

I thought Bangladesh meant 'made by 6 year olds' in Hindi.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

It's really unbelievable this guy has any support at all, let alone leading the GOP polls.

"They've created ISIS. Hillary Clinton created ISIS with Obama," Trump said.

"In Tehran, they're burning down the Saudi embassy, you see that?" Trump said as he opened his remarks. "Now, what that is is Iran wants to take over Saudi Arabia. They always have. They want the oil, OK? They've always wanted that."

http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/02/politi...sis/index.html