CalgaryNEXT Discussion pt. 2

[cam_wmh]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

No I'm not. I'm asking what type of city we want to be. I've not even talked about who should pay

Alright, cool then. Let me pose it again, what % does CSEC put in?

[Frequitude]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Then we will be a city without a proper stadium facility unlike almost every other major Canadian city. Is that what we want to be? If it is that's fine but it is a path that is basically a step back on what we are as a city

Yes, this is perfectly fine for me. Assuming we get a new arena, what exactly do we need a "proper stadium" for beyond the CFL? To feel good? Because a brand new stadium for 10 nights a year is a waste of money. A renovated McMahon is a perfectly acceptable CFL stadium.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Then we will be a city without a proper stadium facility unlike almost every other major Canadian city. Is that what we want to be? If it is that's fine but it is a path that is basically a step back on what we are as a city

I don't know why a Canadian city outside of Toronto needs a stadium.

Hamilton's new stadium has the CFL, the Vanier Cup and a high school football championship game on their event calendar, that's it.

Ottawa's new stadium has the CFL, an NASL soccer team and one university game between the two Ottawa schools. That's it.

I don't think anyone thinks Ottawa or Hamilton are world class because they spent money on stadiums.

Even BMO field in Toronto only hosts the CFL, MLS and some national/exhibition soccer games.

This stadium will host the Stamps and university games. Perhaps you could get a lower level soccer team. After that - you're basically hoping to get a few national soccer games. You have to decide how much you're willing to pay for that.

[Mazrim]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

And as I asked in my anecdotal story (that can't be that anecdotal seeing as it's public transit usage), do we actually wanna be a world class city, or just appear to be one? Every "world class" city I've visited has outstanding transit service. We have (marginally) acceptable transit service. We don't even have 24 hour transit service unlike most world class cities. We have a ways to go before even getting close to a world class city. A shinny arena/stadium project is not changing that very much.

I don't get why you're hung up on 24 hour transit service. There are many "world-class" cities that do NOT have 24 hour service. According to a quick google search, here is a list that do:

New York
Chicago
Melbourne
Copenhagen
Mumbai
Amsterdam

A further 8 cities have restricted bus service in the overnight hours. This is not some holy grail of transit that needs to be done.

Wanna know what else is common in other "world-class" cities? Their transit being packed during peak periods.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Frequitude

Yes, this is perfectly fine for me. Assuming we get a new arena, what exactly do we need a "proper stadium" for beyond the CFL? To feel good? Because a brand new stadium for 10 nights a year is a waste of money. A renovated McMahon is a perfectly acceptable CFL stadium.

Because if the stadium is done right it can attract numerous events including concerts that have traditionally by passed Calgary and gone only to Edmonton. That will never happen at McMahon. You can throw all the bad money you want at McMahon, but it is still a very limited use facility because of the neighborhood it is in. One of the most enduring memories I have of growing up in Calgary is seeing the Eagles at McMahon. Too bad concert events of that magnitude will never see Calgary again because of the lack of suitable venues.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

No I'm not. I'm asking what type of city we want to be. I've not even talked about who should pay

I'm with you.

I'm not about to tell anyone where tax dollars need to be. It's funny that the response always comes to that (not always, but you get what I mean).

If the city doesn't want to get with the Flames group and come up with something I haven't a problem with that. If that's the case I think the CFL team will stay in a stadium where many I know avoid going, and ultimately it will fail. The Flames will build a rink outside the city which will suck for the commute and potentially for the lost atmosphere around the rink, but I'll still go. And the city will still have the West Village as an issue without an anchor tenant willing to kick things off.

In the end it's up to the two parties, but I think Flames ownership group has done enough for charities and the like in this city not to be insulted in how they're told no.

It would be nice if they just said either no thanks, or countered with a funding structure they'd support. The emergence of the Olympic bid is making things predictably political from the city's side and a little sad.

[Frequitude]

Originally Posted by New Era

Because if the stadium is done right it can attract numerous events including concerts that have traditionally by passed Calgary and gone only to Edmonton. That will never happen at McMahon. You can throw all the bad money you want at McMahon, but it is still a very limited use facility because of the neighborhood it is in. One of the most enduring memories I have of growing up in Calgary is seeing the Eagles at McMahon. Too bad concert events of that magnitude will never see Calgary again because of the lack of suitable venues.

You're assuming we don't get a new arena. If we get a new arena, which could clearly hold all those things, give me a list of events that would be incremental to what a new arena would bring.

Building a brand new stadium in addition to a brand new arena is a waste of money.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by New Era

Because if the stadium is done right it can attract numerous events including concerts that have traditionally by passed Calgary and gone only to Edmonton. That will never happen at McMahon. You can throw all the bad money you want at McMahon, but it is still a very limited use facility because of the neighborhood it is in. One of the most enduring memories I have of growing up in Calgary is seeing the Eagles at McMahon. Too bad concert events of that magnitude will never see Calgary again because of the lack of suitable venues.

It is a shame that the residents around McMahon have ruined any chance of having concerts or festivals there. There have been a few low key events like the flood concert and Lilith Fair but it would awesome if the big stadium shows could use McMahon.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by Mazrim

I don't get why you're hung up on 24 hour transit service. There are many "world-class" cities that do NOT have 24 hour service. According to a quick google search, here is a list that do:

New York
Chicago
Melbourne
Copenhagen
Mumbai
Amsterdam

A further 8 cities have restricted bus service in the overnight hours. This is not some holy grail of transit that needs to be done.

Wanna know what else is common in other "world-class" cities? Their transit being packed during peak periods.

Amsterdam, New York and Chicago all have overnight transit too so you can take them off the list (source: I've been to all three). And yeah, other cities have packed transit in rush hour. They also have more trains running as well. I literally have had two times in the last week only 1 train (not 1 train with available room....1 train period) came in a 15 minute window at peak rush hour (4:30 and 5:05 respectively). You will never find that in a world class city. The argument about "world class city" is dumb anyway, Toronto is pretty much Canada's only world class city. Calgary is just a nice place to live, but has no chance to ever become a "world class city". Which is why trying to use the argument of CalgaryNEXT and "world class city" is waste of time.

[Mazrim]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Amsterdam, New York and Chicago all have overnight transit too so you can take them off the list (source: I've been to all three). And yeah, other cities have packed transit in rush hour. They also have more trains running as well. I literally have had two times in the last week only 1 train (not 1 train with available room....1 train period) came in a 15 minute window at peak rush hour (4:30 and 5:05 respectively). You will never find that in a world class city. The argument about "world class city" is dumb anyway, Toronto is pretty much Canada's only world class city. Calgary is just a nice place to live, but has no chance to ever become a "world class city". Which is why trying to use the argument of CalgaryNEXT and "world class city" is waste of time.

No, that's a list of cities that DO have 24 hour service.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by cam_wmh

Alright, cool then. Let me pose it again, what % does CSEC put in?

Honestly I don't know enough to provide a good answer to that.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by Mazrim

No, that's a list of cities that DO have 24 hour service.

Whoops lol. My other points stand though. 15 minutes and one train in rush hour is embarrassing, and Toronto is the only world class city in Canada and Calgary will never come close. It's a dumb argument basically.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Frequitude

You're assuming we don't get a new arena. If we get a new arena, which could clearly hold all those things, give me a list of events that would be incremental to what a new arena would bring.

Building a brand new stadium in addition to a brand new arena is a waste of money.

Not discounting a new arena at all. Some events just aren't designed for a hockey arena. Festival events aren't designed for an arena. Extreme sports events aren't designed for an arena. Just because some of these events do not appeal to you does not mean they do not appeal to others. Also, thinking small like you do pretty well guarantees that future entertainment options are a no go. You can't get a soccer team without a facility that meets the standards of a league. You can't get access to championship events without championship quality facilities. You want to run with the big boys, you need big boy pants.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Whoops lol. My other points stand though. 15 minutes and one train in rush hour is embarrassing, and Toronto is the only world class city in Canada and Calgary will never come close. It's a dumb argument basically.

Oh ok wow.
Throw in the towel guys! We aren't world class and should not strive to be!
Wonderful view.

[GGG]

I am much more open to spending money on the cfl as a cultural spend similar to a fancy library or an art gallary. It will not be built without taxpayer support so the question is eventually do we want the CFL and other Stadium type activities in Calgary. If that answer is yes some money needs to be spent in the next 10-20 years or so.

An Arena on their other hand can be built without taxpayer support

[The Familia]

Originally Posted by puckedoff

Orrr...... not at all? Unless they have a new plan to make CFL popular with people under 30, that league will fold by the time a new stadium is built.

The league has been around longer than you have and will continue to be around long after you are gone. The amount of money that has been invested in stadiums across the country is reason enough to ensure its survival.

I don't understand why people like you and Cliff Fletcher slag the CFL. Here we have a Canadian institution that has been around for over 100 years yet you both feel the need to trash the league because it isn't big and flashy like America. No other country slags their own domestic leagues like Canada does.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Oh ok wow.
Throw in the towel guys! We aren't world class and should not strive to be!
Wonderful view.

So I take it we are not only not world class but we aren't even Edmonton? We make fun of them but they actually have world class facilities and they do host more concerts and events.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by The Familia

The league has been around longer than you have and will continue to be around long after you are gone. The amount of money that has been invested in stadiums across the country is reason enough to ensure its survival.

I don't understand why people like you and Cliff Fletcher slag the CFL. Here we have a Canadian institution that has been around for over 100 years yet you both feel the need to trash the league because it isn't big and flashy like America. No other country slags their own domestic leagues like Canada does.

What other country has a comparable between the CFL and NFL? Their own second tier pro league version, with different rules, of a sport where the league with the biggest footprint in the world is easily available for consumption?

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Oh ok wow.
Throw in the towel guys! We aren't world class and should not strive to be!
Wonderful view.

No one has made an even remotely compelling argument as to why the Stamps need a new facility other than personal reasons. Everyone wants the arena, and we'll get it paid for by the Flames entirely if there's patience. But there is absolutely no good argument for the Stamps new facility. The Stamps will be fine without it, don't worry.

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

So I take it we are not only not world class but we aren't even Edmonton? We make fun of them but they actually have world class facilities and they do host more concerts and events.

Even if we had the same facilities, Calgary would still get skipped. It's a numbers game, it's usually either Edmonton or Calgary, but not both. And that ain't changing either.

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by nik-

What other country has a comparable between the CFL and NFL? Their own second tier pro league version, with different rules, of a sport where the league with the biggest footprint in the world is easily available for consumption?

Aussie Rules?