Brad Treliving needs to go

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

The point is that Gio would not bring back any significant assets and would likely require the Flames to retain salary.

Would a contender think he is what they need for a boost in the playoffs?

The closest he came in his career to a winning playoff series was the play-in against Winnipeg and he was basically along for the ride in that series.


It would be a shock if the Flames protect Gio and a bigger one if Seattle were to pick him up.

If Giordano had an expiring contract this trade deadline he'd fetch at least a second round pick and maybe even a first.

The second year makes him tougher to move with the flat cap.

If Seattle takes him they likely move him at next year's trade deadline for a healthy return.

The wheels coming off Giordano is way over played on this site.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Bingo

If Giordano had an expiring contract this trade deadline he'd fetch at least a second round pick and maybe even a first.

The second year makes him tougher to move with the flat cap.

If Seattle takes him they likely move him at next year's trade deadline for a healthy return.

The wheels coming off Giordano is way over played on this site.

Gio has, of late, been the Flames best offensive Dman and 2nd or 3rd in terms of defensive play.

[ComixZone]

Was just looking through Treliving's years as GM from an offensive production perspective.

20/21: 2.54 GF/GP, 25th overall.
19/20: 2.91 GF/GP, 20th overall.
18/19: 3.52 GF/GP, 3rd overall.
17/18: 2.63 GF/GP, 27th overall.
16/17: 2.71 GF/GP, 16th overall.
15/16: 2.79 GF/GP, 10th overall.
14/15: 2.89 GF/GP, 7th overall.

Average of all 7 seasons: 2.88 GF/GP, 13th overall.
Average of all 5 seasons with coaches hired by Treliving: 2.90 GF/GP, 18th overall.

Outside of that one anomaly of a season under Peters (which ended in embarrassment), this team has proven year in and year out that they do not have the skill required to be a consistent playoff team, let alone a "contender". I don't think the Hartley years are even worth referencing at this stage given how long ago they were and the fact that he wasn't a Treliving hire.

...at any stage outside of those first 60'ish games in 18/19, how did we ever believe that we were in any sort of "contending window". Yikes. This team has just never been good.

I really hope that these 7 years have been a lesson learned for the Flames and that they now know tanking really is required for them to win a Stanley Cup. This organization needs to begin drafting in the top-3 of the draft, or they are doomed to maintain their absolute irrelevance.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Would re-phrase slightly which is to say, will someone with a better proven track record, be willing to take on this mess.

Surely someone would. Someone better though? Unsure.

Maybe not, could be true.
If BT is the best option willing to have the job, then I guess he should stay.

Imagine a job where by creating one of the worst franchises in the league, you guarantee your own employment because no one else qualified will want to take over.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

Maybe not, could be true.
If BT is the best option willing to have the job, then I guess he should stay.

Imagine a job where by creating one of the worst franchises in the league, you guarantee your own employment because no one else qualified will want to take over.

That would be wizardry.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Respectfully there are several hundred posts in this thread addressing exactly this.

It's hard to say what trade should have been made since that requires knowledge we don't have. But it's pretty easy to point out the bad moves and missed opportunities and that has been done ad nauseum.

Wasted assets on the goalie carousel
Wasted assets on meaningless deadline acquisitions
Too many examples of poor evaluation of NHL talent acquired in trades and UFA signings
Poor coaching hires
Failure to address the weakest part of the team, forward skill

I mean if nothing else, give me back the picks in the Hamonic, Lazar and Elliott trades and package them to move up in the draft. Or just use the picks. Or acquire something else

This is not to say he hasn't done good things, and that luck plays a role but I don't agree that people aren't pointing out specifics of what went wrong. And while lots of these deals were questionable at the time, IMO it's not unfair to use hindsight to evaluate any executive. That's life.

That's my point - there are hundreds of posts that say he should have done something but not what he should have done. I suspect because a deeper look says that nothing was really that possible unless there was a "blow it up" attempt earlier than most people would have thought.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

Maybe not, could be true.
If BT is the best option willing to have the job, then I guess he should stay.

Imagine a job where by creating one of the worst franchises in the league, you guarantee your own employment because no one else qualified will want to take over.

The Flames were already one of the worst franchises in the league before BT arrived.
He didn't create that.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by Flamesfan05

Lol you can’t look at it that way.... you have to look at all the great centers that were picked 4th and below. For example Schiefele, Ziban, Couturier, Marner, Barzal and more are all the centers you could have picked with a 4th in theory

No one was looking to take Barzal at 4 even if it makes sense in hindsight. Anything outside say the top 6 that were actually taken is pure hindsight and not a realistic pick to evaluate drafting against.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Bingo

If Giordano had an expiring contract this trade deadline he'd fetch at least a second round pick and maybe even a first.

The second year makes him tougher to move with the flat cap.

If Seattle takes him they likely move him at next year's trade deadline for a healthy return.

The wheels coming off Giordano is way over played on this site.

You are correct, but the extra year makes him very difficult to move for any kind of decent value.

That’s a huge if.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Was just looking through Treliving's years as GM from an offensive production perspective.

20/21: 2.54 GF/GP, 25th overall.
19/20: 2.91 GF/GP, 20th overall.
18/19: 3.52 GF/GP, 3rd overall.
17/18: 2.63 GF/GP, 27th overall.
16/17: 2.71 GF/GP, 16th overall.
15/16: 2.79 GF/GP, 10th overall.
14/15: 2.89 GF/GP, 7th overall.

Average of all 7 seasons: 2.88 GF/GP, 13th overall.
Average of all 5 seasons with coaches hired by Treliving: 2.90 GF/GP, 18th overall.

Outside of that one anomaly of a season under Peters (which ended in embarrassment), this team has proven year in and year out that they do not have the skill required to be a consistent playoff team, let alone a "contender". I don't think the Hartley years are even worth referencing at this stage given how long ago they were and the fact that he wasn't a Treliving hire.

...at any stage outside of those first 60'ish games in 18/19, how did we ever believe that we were in any sort of "contending window". Yikes. This team has just never been good.

I really hope that these 7 years have been a lesson learned for the Flames and that they now know tanking really is required for them to win a Stanley Cup. This organization needs to begin drafting in the top-3 of the draft, or they are doomed to maintain their absolute irrelevance.

I tend to agree that you’re expediting your rebuild through tanking. And arguably that’s the only way to do it. I don’t personally believe in the scorched earth philosophy as losing can kill the development of a great prospect. So some guys need to be kept to help the new guys out and take the pressure off them. Even with this crap draft ahead, the Flames may be better off and deal some guys to build off it as in modern day a top five is unlikely to be crap.

In all this the business side of the sport comes in and ownership has to bite the bullet and realize that the season ticket holders have to go through a rebuild whether they like it or not. Too many mediocre seasons will yield frustration. A couple seasons of frustration are better than perpetual annoyance.

I tend to think Markstrom is the one guy now they should keep who can single handedly help the team through a rebuild. Plus teams aren’t paying too compensation in a trade for a goaltender recently. But everyone else should be on the table for contractual purging reasons or just to get a good return back.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by fleury

I tend to agree that you’re expediting your rebuild through tanking. And arguably that’s the only way to do it. I don’t personally believe in the scorched earth philosophy as losing can kill the development of a great prospect. So some guys need to be kept to help the new guys out and take the pressure off them. Even with this crap draft ahead, the Flames may be better off and deal some guys to build off it as in modern day a top five is unlikely to be crap.

In all this the business side of the sport comes in and ownership has to bite the bullet and realize that the season ticket holders have to go through a rebuild whether they like it or not. Too many mediocre seasons will yield frustration. A couple seasons of frustration are better than perpetual annoyance.

I tend to think Markstrom is the one guy now they should keep who can single handedly help the team through a rebuild. Plus teams aren’t paying too compensation in a trade for a goaltender recently. But everyone else should be on the table for contractual purging reasons or just to get a good return back.

I don’t understand the apprehension when it comes to tanking anymore.

18 of the past 20 Stanley cup winners have players drafted in the top-3 developed internally.

Tanking to me is an absolute requirement.

It is 100% not the be all end all solution, but it gives you a shot. You need those foundational top-3 pieces - and from there what you do determines if you build a contending team, but you cannot reasonably expect to win a Stanley Cup without top-3 picks.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Um The Flames have a HOF coach with as many connections in the NHL management ranks as anyone.

your point? Darryl Sutter will do a better job of it than Brian Burke.....because....?

seems like your grasping at straws. I would have much more faith in Brain Burke who held several GM positions in the league, worked for the league, and is a Havard educated lawyer. Just a guess but he seems much more equipped to hire an executive than Darryl Sutter (who is an excellent hockey coach).

Not only that but I believe Sutter himself set the record straight recently that he has no aspirations to be a GM again, so it would seem somewhat perplexing that he be asked to hire one. I think he knows his lane and probably would prefer to stay within it. I'm sure Sutter would be asked his opinion, but as far as executing a recruitment, I'm bit skeptical on that 'favour' he would be providing.

[GioforPM]

Burke as a GM has won a cup at least. Sutter as a GM set the club back. Arguably by doing the same things Treliving is doing - mis-evaluating his team.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

I don’t understand the apprehension when it comes to tanking anymore.

18 of the past 20 Stanley cup winners have players drafted in the top-3 developed internally.

Tanking to me is an absolute requirement.

It is 100% not the be all end all solution, but it gives you a shot. You need those foundational top-3 pieces - and from there what you do determines if you build a contending team, but you cannot reasonably expect to win a Stanley Cup without top-3 picks.

Sure is working well for the Rangers who openly wrote a letter to their fans over 3 years ago and embraced this "belief".

Drafted 9th, 1st and 2nd overall since then, added Artemi Panarin for no assets, Adam Fox blackmailed his way there, have 2 of the more highly touted young G's in the game...and it has gotten them....what?

They may still ascend to lofty heights but they dont have a new stadium to worry about filling in that exact time frame either, which has to be a major concern for this team




Just sayin.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

That's my point - there are hundreds of posts that say he should have done something but not what he should have done. I suspect because a deeper look says that nothing was really that possible unless there was a "blow it up" attempt earlier than most people would have thought.

I think lots of people are saying what he should have done. How about keep your draft picks and cap space?

Are you looking for a specific trade proposal?

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I just don’t think Sutter should be given any more say in roster construction than the minimal input a coach typically has. His stint as GM does not inspire confidence. I have my doubts he’s the right coach for a rebuild either, which makes the future of this franchises even less hopeful.

So we have a hall of fame worthy coach who has taken multiple teams deep into the playoffs. And we want him to have the same input as Glen Gulutzan?

IMO any coach should have considerable input on roster construction, but especially one as accomplished as they guy we have.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Sure is working well for the Rangers who openly wrote a letter to their fans over 3 years ago and embraced this "belief".

Drafted 9th, 1st and 2nd overall since then, added Artemi Panarin for no assets, Adam Fox blackmailed his way there, have 2 of the more highly touted young G's in the game...and it has gotten them....what?

They may still ascend to lofty heights but they dont have a new stadium to worry about filling in that exact time frame either, which has to be a major concern for this team




Just sayin.

Yeah, their picks aren't looking like the homerun selections but it still goes back to 18 of the last 20 champs have those picks in their line-ups. Timing is a huge part of it.

Championships are built on centres and defencemen, so having what I'd say is bad luck on draft years definitely has an impact - again, it's not a perfect "you're going to be good!" solution, but you can't truly expect to be a championship quality team without those picks in your lineup.

Step 1: Draft in the top-3 multiple times.
Step 2: Be one of the best managed hockey teams in the league
Step 3: Win a Championship at SOME point in the future if you nailed step 1 and executed step 2 at a high level. You then at least open yourself to truly take advantage of a year where things go your way in the playoffs.

[Strange Brew]

I’m not sure I get the apprehension over needing to be successful for the new building. Do they only plan to be in it for a year or two?

A new building sells itself at the outset.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I think lots of people are saying what he should have done. How about keep your draft picks and cap space?

Are you looking for a specific trade proposal?

There were a total of two first round draft picks that Treliving dealt. One resulted in Lindholm and Hanifin. The other was wasted but the team would have had no better present record with drafting, say, Noah Dobson instead of having Hamonic for a few years. And, as I showed the other day, he has collected and dealt almost the same number of lower draft picks.

Cap space - OK, Neal (and therefore Lucic) is not value at all. But where else are the savings and how does that translate into a an elite 1C, which is what the team lacks?

Lots of people are diagnosing the condition of the team. Not many have any realistic notions of how this team doesn't wind up in the same place using some other strategy.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I think lots of people are saying what he should have done. How about keep your draft picks and cap space?

Are you looking for a specific trade proposal?

Again with this empty complaint of trading draft picks. Is it that unusual that he has traded picks? Is he the only GM out there trading picks? Has he not acquired picks himself and, if anything, appears to be in position to do so once again?

You can make this complaint about any person who has held the position as a GM in the modern history of the game. If Treliving were to be fired, his replacement would almost certainly trade draft picks as well.