[News] New Arena - Plan B - Victoria Park

[Lord Carnage]

Originally Posted by OldDutch

Wow a plea for ignorance, now I have heard it all on this subject. I'm out of here.

You seriously believe that we all know everything about this process? You statement makes it seem that way, but this whole discussion is littered with too many people apparently "know" all the ins and outs.

Maybe I owe an apology, and just haven't done the appropriate reading and research myself.

[Smartcar]

Sorry if this is off topic, but can anyone provide a list of reasons why we need a new arena? As a 20-year STH (shared initially, and then my own), I don't have so many issues with the current facilities that I think we need a $500M new facility that I will have to pay for, either with increased civic taxes or higher ticket prices or (most likely) both.

I'd be interested to see what the issues are with the Saddledome that people think justify the cost of building a new facility.

I know about pinched concourse and not enough facilities to accommodate everyone during intermissions, but my personal experience has been sure, but I wouldn't be in favour of paying what it would cost to increase the Deerfoot to 6 lanes each way so I don't have to sit during rush hour.

I know about the Flames wanting more high priced seats to increase revenue, but quite frankly, in the current economic climate I know a few club STH at $11k per seat that are seriously considering whether they want to renew, and I'm seriously considering whether I want to renew my lower bowl seats at $6K per seat or move to cheaper seats. So a new facility might mean more $$$ seats that might be empty unless things turn around.

I know concerts pass us by because of lack of capacity of the roof structure, I just don't consider it to be important enough to spend $500M on a new facility.

So I'm just wondering whether there are other reasons I may not have thought of, that might justify it to me. I'm sure any one of the reasons I already know about might be enough to justify it for some people. Thanks in advance.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Lord Carnage

facepalm (see, I can do that too, though i mean no offense in doing so)...

I really don't get why everyone on the "Pro-City" side of this discussion is so staunchly there with no desire to understand other points of view.

Your first post made a handful of claims that have been meticulously refuted in the last few pages (but fair enough, this thread has moved fast).

The last few pages have been all about us trying to understand other POV. Sure, a some have been dismissive and argumentative, but many of us have been probing to understand Bingo et. al's position better.

That doesn't change the fact that an idea or proposal does NOT need an official report to be rejected. If I propose something to the City, does that mean they need to issue a formal response just because I propose something?

Apparently they did need it - all evidence points to the city rejecting the concept in the early phases, and the Flames apparently not listening. I'll acknowledge that something doesn't add up, though. Maybe simple miscommunication, maybe the Flames didn't want to hear.

If the Flames said, "Let's bulldoze the Big 4 and build an arena there", would the City and/or the Stampede Board come up with a bunch of research to back their position of, "No, this does not fit with our plans because of x."? Of course not, and rational human beings would understand why (yes, that means not everyone would understand - probably much outrage too).

I gotta run now, but this did more/less happen. Stampede came to the table and considered the idea...

[Lord Carnage]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

I gotta run now, but this did more/less happen. Stampede came to the table and considered the idea...

That I didn't know... and good on them to consider it.

[Fire]

Originally Posted by Smartcar

Sorry if this is off topic, but can anyone provide a list of reasons why we need a new arena? As a 20-year STH (shared initially, and then my own), I don't have so many issues with the current facilities that I think we need a $500M new facility that I will have to pay for, either with increased civic taxes or higher ticket prices or (most likely) both.

I'd be interested to see what the issues are with the Saddledome that people think justify the cost of building a new facility.

I know about pinched concourse and not enough facilities to accommodate everyone during intermissions, but my personal experience has been sure, but I wouldn't be in favour of paying what it would cost to increase the Deerfoot to 6 lanes each way so I don't have to sit during rush hour.

I know about the Flames wanting more high priced seats to increase revenue, but quite frankly, in the current economic climate I know a few club STH at $11k per seat that are seriously considering whether they want to renew, and I'm seriously considering whether I want to renew my lower bowl seats at $6K per seat or move to cheaper seats. So a new facility might mean more $$$ seats that might be empty unless things turn around.

I know concerts pass us by because of lack of capacity of the roof structure, I just don't consider it to be important enough to spend $500M on a new facility.

So I'm just wondering whether there are other reasons I may not have thought of, that might justify it to me. I'm sure any one of the reasons I already know about might be enough to justify it for some people. Thanks in advance.

List of problems off the top of my head:

- Lack of prime lower bowl seats.
- Not enough luxury boxes.
- Lack of capacity for the roof.
- Lack of concourse space. A lot of new arenas have two levels of concourses.
- Lack of washrooms.
- Too many undesirable nose bleed seats.
- There are probably a lot of amenities that are not seen by the public (work out area, customer service areas, etc) that could use massive upgrades.

Of course as a fan you might not care about a lot of that list, but the owners do care. Having the oldest arena is also a factor (though maybe a very small one) when trying to attract UFAs to the team.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Lord Carnage

That I didn't know... and good on them to consider it.

To finish my thought - not only has Stampede considered it, but they are still on board with a major aspect of that concept, which is to extend 17th ave to connect with 4th Ave aka. Olympic Way aka. Stampede Trail.

The arena concept would have involved sunken tracks...I think in the last few years the idea has been to tunnel 17th under tracks, but I imagine both ideas are still on the table.

I'm not sure how you sink/tunnel the tracks in that location without a fairly lengthy disruption to service, unless you build a parallel tunnel from City Hall (might as well tunnel all the way to cemetary hill at that point). A costly proposition that doesn't really solve any problems (for instance, doing the same thing at 36 st NE would be a lot more beneficial).

FWIW I'm not sure who first came up with the 17th ave to Olympic Way connection idea - could have been any combination of City/Stampede/Flames.

Another problem this concept is the demolition of the Big 4. Old and ugly as it is, it's still a tangible asset for Stampede - not a big revenue generator, but it still breaks even as overflow exhibit/concert space when BMO is conflicted, and serves a purpose at Stampede time. An old rumour was also that the Big 4 was so solidly built, that demolition would be more costly than typical. Constructing an arena there with all would also involve a fairly major disruption for at least one July, probably two, for Stampede. Construction of the Western Event Centre (or the current new arena location) are comparatively more minor disruptions - more on the periphery of guest areas and easily contained for the ten days of Stampede.

Originally Posted by Fire

List of problems off the top of my head:

- Lack of prime lower bowl seats.
- Not enough luxury boxes.
- Lack of capacity for the roof.
- Lack of concourse space. A lot of new arenas have two levels of concourses.
- Lack of washrooms.
- Too many undesirable nose bleed seats.
- There are probably a lot of amenities that are not seen by the public (work out area, customer service areas, etc) that could use massive upgrades.

Of course as a fan you might not care about a lot of that list, but the owners do care. Having the oldest arena is also a factor (though maybe a very small one) when trying to attract UFAs to the team.

Pretty sure he acknowledged pretty much all of those - he was wondering if there is anything else.

New arena design can certainly help mitigate these issues, but there has been no magical discovery since 1980 that solves the problems. There is always going to be 17000 people wanting to arrive at the same time, buy a beer at the same time, piss at the same time, and leave at the same time. Reducing that number from 19000 will help a bit, as will the overall arena design. But the improvements will be marginal, and IMO not worthy of the increased prices.

Ask full bladdered Oilers fans how much better the new arena was this year. Even better, ask full bladdered female fans how they enjoyed the last few games.


As a Flames fan, a new practice rink and player facilities (locker rooms, etc.) are enticing, as I agree that these items carry at least a bit of weight in most players' decisions to stay/leave/come to Calgary.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

New arena design can certainly help mitigate these issues, but there has been no magical discovery since 1980 that solves the problems. There is always going to be 17000 people wanting to arrive at the same time, buy a beer at the same time, piss at the same time, and leave at the same time. Reducing that number from 19000 will help a bit, as will the overall arena design. But the improvements will be marginal, and IMO not worthy of the increased prices.

Ask full bladdered Oilers fans how much better the new arena was this year. Even better, ask full bladdered female fans how they enjoyed the last few games.


As a Flames fan, a new practice rink and player facilities (locker rooms, etc.) are enticing, as I agree that these items carry at least a bit of weight in most players' decisions to stay/leave/come to Calgary.

Games I've been to in newer buildings have more levels though, not just one big one, and then sort of two others that aren't complete.

That along with the avoidance of angular 45 degree pillars that take up most of the traffic space in the end zone keeps 17,000 people from trying to navigate the same concourse every night.

I'm the first to admit a game in Glendale is different because they don't sell out. But having 5 levels instead of 1, and every level having it's own beer, food and bathroom helps a lot.

Up to the individual on whether that justifies the cost though.

[Alberta_Beef]

I Would kill to have more space in the concourse, I come close to a panic attack because of how crowded things can get. I get in as early as I can, I don't leave my seat during intermissions and linger after the games just so I can avoid the crowds as much as I can. I know if I do this, many others do too and it would be nice to have multiple levels so it's not so congested and some of us that struggle with crowds can enjoy more of a normal experience.

[Bunk]

I'm quite excited about the prospect of a new arena, not just for the facility itself by the potential for a really interesting and fun urban district it can help spur. I really hope they get it right.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Bunk

I'm quite excited about the prospect of a new arena, not just for the facility itself by the potential for a really interesting and fun urban district it can help spur. I really hope they get it right.

this - exactly this

[JiriHrdina]

I was at the Ducks game 7 against the Oilers and I have to say the overall arena experience was superior. I love the arenas that go more "up" than "out" so you feel like you are right on top of the ice. Two power rings, an amazing jumbotron and just generally a way better experience.
That doesn't justify the cost on its own, just saying the difference was more dramatic than I thought it would be and underscored how old the Dome is getting.

[Bingo]

They key is getting it right ... right place, right design.

I'm not going to hack on Oilers fans, too easy, but that bathroom issue up North has to be looked at as it's a pretty serious issue at hockey games. Guessing someone messed up, I think they said more bathrooms, but the number that are in executive areas vs general masses is out of synch.

[Regorium]

Originally Posted by Lord Carnage

I really don't get why everyone on the "Pro-City" side of this discussion is so staunchly there with no desire to understand other points of view.

I think the pro-City side really understands the other point of view.

It involves having more access to concerts, the feeling of a world class city, guarantee of a NHL hockey team staying and having a new arena for a better hockey experience just like the city 300km to the north. Did I characterize it right?

And in the last couple pages, it also seems to involve sticking it to Nenshi (derisively called Spendshi, but ironically they're also mad because he's NOT spending in this case).

To flip it around, do you understand why the pro-City people are pro-City?

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Bingo

They key is getting it right ... right place, right design.

I'm not going to hack on Oilers fans, too easy, but that bathroom issue up North has to be looked at as it's a pretty serious issue at hockey games. Guessing someone messed up, I think they said more bathrooms, but the number that are in executive areas vs general masses is out of synch.

Why waste money on bathrooms when fans can urinate outside the arena? It's an ongoing problem that looks like it's not going away anytime soon;

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...keen-1.4107029

Well we know that the Oilers have always viewed their fans in tiers so I don't know if anyone should be surprised that tier 1 fans are getting more bathrooms than tier 2 fans. Also there are plenty of seats scattered around the arena that have obstructed views and rows not staggered enough where the person in sitting in front are blocking their view which is unforgivable in this day and age. I sure hope the Flames are a lot smarter than this and are learning from the mistakes made up north as it seems like a lot of money went into style over substance almost like they were trying too hard to make the place a spectacle rather than a really good arena to watch events. It doesn't have to look like a shiny steel appliance from the outside and it doesn't need to dazzle newcomers when they walk through the door. It just has to be a great place to come and watch a game.

[GordonBlue]

Originally Posted by Bingo

They key is getting it right ... right place, right design.

I'm not going to hack on Oilers fans, too easy, but that bathroom issue up North has to be looked at as it's a pretty serious issue at hockey games. Guessing someone messed up, I think they said more bathrooms, but the number that are in executive areas vs general masses is out of synch.

from my limited time spent at the new Edmonton arena, the biggest problem I have is the caste system for fans. The arena (and bathroom/concourse space) is great if you're a "rich" fan in the lower area, but it's pathetic for the fans in the upper bowl. (I won't say cheap seats as they are not cheap)

Depending where you can afford to sit you hear of two totally different customer experiences. The average joe really seems to have been an afterthought.

When the flames finally get going on their arena, I really hope for the sake of the fans they don't go the same way.

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by GordonBlue

from my limited time spent at the new Edmonton arena, the biggest problem I have is the caste system for fans. The arena (and bathroom/concourse space) is great if you're a "rich" fan in the lower area, but it's pathetic for the fans in the upper bowl. (I won't say cheap seats as they are not cheap)

Depending where you can afford to sit you hear of two totally different customer experiences. The average joe really seems to have been an afterthought.

When the flames finally get going on their arena, I really hope for the sake of the fans they don't go the same way.

This about sums it up.

Your experience in the new arena in Edmonton is only improved if you are in Club or boxes or the Loge seating. The General lower bowl is ok and the upper is terrible. Unfortunately its what happens when they are building the rink to maximize revenue.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by GordonBlue

When the flames finally get going on their arena, I really hope for the sake of the fans they don't go the same way.

I wouldn't hold your breath. Sports hasn't been about the plebes for a while now. It's all about maximizing revenue and catering to the high-margin fans.

That's part of why a lot of us are not that excited about subsidizing the entertainment of a bunch of rich people with our public tax dollars.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by Table 5

I wouldn't hold your breath. Sports hasn't been about the plebes for a while now. It's all about maximizing revenue and catering to the high-margin fans.

That's part of why a lot of us are not that excited about subsidizing the entertainment of a bunch of rich people with our public tax dollars.

It will be interesting what the City can get out of CSE.

I doubt there will be any type of revenue sharing because I don't think there is a precedent for that (outside of Green Bay?) and leagues are loath to open their books - hard to cry poor when people know you arent.

But the City could ask for some direct input into the design of the building. They are probably going to be paying for some of it, and probably owning it in the end.

The Flames goal is to maximize profit. They are a business, I certainly won't hold that against them, but the City as a potential investor can throw some of its weight into getting the best deal and facility for all Calgarians.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by Bunk

the potential for a really interesting and fun urban district

If that means a collection of franchise chain restaurants, no thanks. A "fun urban district" planned from the top-down, is bound to be lame. Better if the community surrounds the new arena with entertainment options organically.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Table 5

I wouldn't hold your breath. Sports hasn't been about the plebes for a while now. It's all about maximizing revenue and catering to the high-margin fans.

That's part of why a lot of us are not that excited about subsidizing the entertainment of a bunch of rich people with our public tax dollars.

Well hopefully they're smart enough to see where that line should be.

Having high end experiences and pay for perks is totally a logical way to construct a building.

But have enough bathrooms isn't a luxury, it's just good planning. This isn't steerage on the Titanic. If the second tier can't urinate they're not buying beer, and that has to be a hit for the team in revenue maximization.